Author Topic: Shoes thrown at President Bush during his visit it Baghdad!  (Read 6246 times)

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Offline Rockstone

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Re: Shoes thrown at President Bush during his visit it Baghdad!
« Reply #30 on: December 24, 2008, 03:39:36 PM »
If you tax the people who control the markets, all they do is increase the prices. And what constitutes as rich? Does someone who makes $150,000 a year fit in that category? What about $500,000?

Free health care services I think are not a good idea for many reasons.

We should get out of debt first, and THEN think about these services.
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Offline (TLL)Calistarius

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Re: Shoes thrown at President Bush during his visit it Baghdad!
« Reply #31 on: December 24, 2008, 05:27:16 PM »
Imagine this... you use parts of the tax... that you get by higher tax on the rich and big companies... to pay... some of the dept... :o

And yes, I guess the companies could raise price's, they always try and squeeze out as much as they can. But imagine this then, the rich people and big companies pay more in taxes, and the rest of the American people pay a bit more in tax to, all these taxes can be used on for example a national healthcare system, that reduces the amount of money you have to pay when you have to go to hospital's, get medicine, etc.

It also means that these extra taxes can be used elsewhere to, in various welfare kinds of things, where the price of them will be reduced. Like school food, as far as I know most people in America have to them self pay for the food the kids eat in school (I might be wrong). With the extra taxes the food could be technically "free", since you do not have to actually take that cash from your pocket to pay for it. And your kid won't go hungry all day because some older kid, or the jocks or who ever, bullied your kid and stole his cash. So with a bit of extra tax your kid could actually get to eat at school and not have to come home hungry, unfortunatly he would probably still be bullied (:(). (Note: I do not mean "your kid" as in your kid, if you have any children.)

With a few more % in tax's for everyone, and a lot more % in tax for the rich and big companies, the majority of the American people will probably actually feel that they have more money to move around with, then they do now. Because having to pay the full price for example a/several hospital visit + medicine, will basically kick the legs out from under most Americans.

Now I am not saying that it will be just as easy as I might make it sound, it won't be on numerous levels. One big one being the very deeply rooted though in the American mind that "high taxes = bad", so this change will have to come over a long time. Doing this whole change in a short time would be to much of a strain on everybody and everything.

I am not either saying that the welfare system that Sweden, Canada, Great Britain, and other countries use, is flawless... there are problams even under this kind of systems. But if I had to choice one system that I had to live under, I would personally choice the Swedish one every time. Where as the current American one would just get a sad look, with a raised eyebrow and a shakinghead, as I feel sorry for the people who has to live under a system like that. I would rather live under a system that "punishes" a few for the benefit of many, then a system that "punishes" many for the benefit of a few.

Offline Rockstone

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Re: Shoes thrown at President Bush during his visit it Baghdad!
« Reply #32 on: December 24, 2008, 05:35:58 PM »
I can't imagine anyone ever wishing to pay more in taxes. I would prefer that income taxes in the United States would be replaced with a flat line tax (eg: Everyone pays 10% of their income... what ever there income is, as taxes) as opposed to the system we have now.

The problem with socialized medicine (free health care) is that then everyone is dependent on the government. I know several doctors who could not live in the luxury they do if free health care came about.

I don't have children (I am only 14), but those making less than ex amount of dollars a year get free food. At least in my county. It is different county by county, state by state.
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Offline (TLL) Heretic

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Re: Shoes thrown at President Bush during his visit it Baghdad!
« Reply #33 on: December 24, 2008, 06:01:24 PM »
I've never met a poor doctor yet (although I admit the junior doctors are underpaid and overworked, but they do get the benefit later in their career).  So the idea that an American NHS would hurt the doctors doesn't hold in practice (most NHS doctors seem to drive Mercs).

The Lib Dem Party (our 3rd major party in the UK) ran on a slogan of a penny extra tax to sort a specific(forgotten which) issue out, and it was quite popular(relative to the LibDems unpopularity).

We tried a flat tax (otherwise known as a Poll Tax) in the UK on two occasions, both ended nastily.  First under Cromwell, this almost caused the implosion of England as a single state and thousands died in the rioting.  And the second time with Thatcher in the 80's, this almost lead to Scotland succeeding from the Union, and the bad blood led to Scotland and Wales semi-succession (called devolution) in the 90's.

You introduce a Poll Tax and your effectively taxing people on their right to vote, do it and watch as state after state succeeds.

You know Calistarius, in Britain we always hear talk of how good the Swedish system is, from medicine, geothermal heating to housing and general high standard of living, but we tend to forget that you guys are taxed so much for it!  That is, until we visit and complain how expensive the booze is (might be mixing you up with Norway, from this distance we don't see much seperating you, so sorry if I'm mistaken)!


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Offline Rockstone

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Re: Shoes thrown at President Bush during his visit it Baghdad!
« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2008, 06:22:54 PM »
Lol.

No state would ever succeed from the united states and live to tell about it. This is the difference between "The United States" and "These United States". Which one did we choose?
I do not have any emotions, only an emotion processor.

"You fool- you are recalibrating the Holovid just to please me"

"When you are faced with a fight like that, it is best to dodge AWAY from the shot, not into it."

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Offline (TLL)Calistarius

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Re: Shoes thrown at President Bush during his visit it Baghdad!
« Reply #35 on: December 25, 2008, 07:38:53 AM »
True, most people don't really want to pay more taxes, or pay any at all. Even I feel "damn it" at taxes at times to. In some case's higher taxes can be a really bad thing, but that completely depends on what the people who drive them in use them for. For example a dictatorship or something, where most of the taxes probably don't go towards the people. That's when high taxes is a really bad thing. But in the case's where it goes towards the people and the nations prosperity in some way, then it is a good thing.

All in all I can actually say that I feel, in some way's, proud of the fact that Sweden is the country in the world that usually have the highest tax "burdon" each year. If you look at how much of the GDP of Sweden is tax's we normally ends up on top: List of countries by tax revenue as percentage of GDP. This means that the average Swede pays a total of 50+% of what they earn in tax's, both your normal tax's, and the tax on everything you buy. And I honestly have no real problam with it.

Most doctors in most countries do earn more then your average person. I am not sure about how much money the Swedish doctors earn, but it does not seem to be any problams with their pay, since you never or really hear about it. So I don't know if it is to high. What you do hear though is that our nurses do get payed to little, because sometimes they do cause headlines about it. And on some occasions they have even been on strikes, usually short ones, but still. I know we do have private practice's in Sweden, but as far as I know they are not extremely many. Most people in Sweden do go to your normal state controlled hospitals, and they are usually pretty top notch or close to. And if something specific can't be treated at your local hospital your not that many hours away from one that possibly can.

I am guessing the ones who use Private practices are rich people who don't want to wait in line like everyone else, thinking that they somehow are "better" then everyone else. With the Swedish mentality though, people who think they are better then everyone else, braggers, "I/we am the best", people who talk big etc, are in general looked down on. And this is usually no matter if they might be right or not, because it is rude. Just because someone happends to be richer, better at something, stronger, etc, then others, does not give him/her/them the right to expect to be treated different or better just because of it.

Anyway... as far as I see it, people should not become doctors because of the pay they might get, but because they want to be doctors. Now, there is a chance that we would get less doctors around if we only went with that, because I don't know how many becomes doctors due to money. It just feels wrong that people become doctors because of money.


Heretic: I do think that when it comes to Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Finland, we all do have pretty high taxes on most things in general, we are pretty similar, I think that Island is probably similar to. When it comes to Alcohol we do have a high tax on it in Sweden (Norway does to, I don't know how it is in Finland and Denmark, but I think Denmark has a much lower tax on it), because it is a harmful substance, I do believe Norway is a bit more expensive though. Similar to for example cigarettes, they have a pretty high tax on them to. And you do not want just about anyone to be able to get a hold of alcohol at any time of the day all days of the week.

Most alcohol in Sweden is controlled and distributed by the government, through "Systembolaget", they are the only ones allowed to sell alcohol in Sweden as a store. With the exception of weaker kinds of beer and Cider, possibly a few other things to, (don't know what the % can max be on them). Bar's, pubs, restaurants and similar are of course allowed to sell it to, of course you can't buy a bottle of vodka from them though. Also, to buy alcohol from Systembolaget you have to be 20 with a valid ID, same with the weaker beer in stores, but your allowed to buy alcohol in bars from the age of 18.

Systembolaget is normally open weekdays between 10am to 6pm, it can change a bit depending on the area the store is in, and on Saturdays between 1pm to 3pm, Sundays they are closed. So with the exception of the weaker alcohol in stores, and bars, you can only get a hold of the stronger stuff for about 8 hours per day, 2 hours on Saturdays. So your not going to find those alcohol stores that you can find in America for example, or find alcohol or strong bear and cider in your average food store etc.


And no worries if you at times mistaking us for Norway or something, most Scandinavian and Nordic countries are pretty similar in one/several way/s or another. We have had a pretty tight history together, with wars and alliances, and what not. Finland for example, belonged to Sweden for about 650 or so years, and we still seem to have an impact on them today (both good and bad at times). Norway also used to belong to Sweden for some time, and during some times we where allied, usualy vs the Danes. :D And the southern parts of Sweden (where I live) belonged to Denmark a few times over the centurys. Denmark was probably our biggest nordic enemy, we fought them on numerous occations. :D And Island's people did come from here to, mainly Norway and Denmark I think though, but they are pretty simmilar to us in general to. There is still bickering between all of us, but it is usualy in a loving way... you know, like how it can be between syblings. ;D

As for how good it is here in Sweden compared to other places. I don't know. We do some things better then otheres, and on other things we are not as good as other countries. But we do have our own set of problams that we have to deal with, and need to try and fix. So yeah, we have a pretty good standard of living here, we handle a lot of things slightly better then most, but we are far from perfect or anything. In one word we are: "Lagom". (pretty ironic to say "in one word" when I have writen a whole essey of a post... XD)

I have to say that your very rarly going to find a Swede who will outright brag about how "good" we are, or something like that. Most Swedes (including me) would think someone doing that to be rude, and an arse basicly. No... we normaly try to let our actions, performance, statistics, reputation, and what ever else it might be, speak for us more often then not, no matter if it is good or bad. I know I am speaking for my whole country here right now, which I probably should not, since I am sure there are people who disagree with me. But this is how I feel about how most Swedes are.


Damn it... why can't I write short posts, that go right to the point of what I want to say... :P I envie people who can do that. :-[
*sighs and then stops writing, because this post was to big even after the tax's and hospital part*

Offline Rockstone

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Re: Shoes thrown at President Bush during his visit it Baghdad!
« Reply #36 on: December 25, 2008, 03:33:33 PM »
Sweden is a quite a good country from what I have heard. Granted, as an American, I would rather be in the United States, but oh well.

Cheers all around! North America and Europe for the win!
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Offline (TLL) Heretic

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Re: Shoes thrown at President Bush during his visit it Baghdad!
« Reply #37 on: December 25, 2008, 03:56:56 PM »
Don't worry, I'm guilty of never saying anything with 3 words when I can use 303 :)

We get a lot of people in Britain who use the Scandinavian countries as an example of why we should leave the EU and some more people who argue for adopting your social standards, so its interesting and informative to hear the point of view of a Swede.  The British system is more similar to the US system though; which is often unfortunate.  

Historically we Brits have shined brightest when we embraced our better natures and developed a "we're all in this together" attitude (we often reference how we behaved and looked after each other during our worst days as a nation).  Recently, this has eroded due to all manner of things, and the current (for last 25 years) attitude has been "we're all in this for what we can get" .  As a patriot I worry about this erosion, what we fought for, a "land fit for heroes" where the children, the sick and the elderly would be looked after well, I see no place for such a land to survive with current attitudes.

And I worry about what we are doing in the world, it seems that our leaders have forgotten that until we sacrificed all we had to fight Hitler (which was a chosen option, they did not want Britain or its Empire. just to maintain the statis quo as ;as long as we let then have Europe).

Until this time we were viewed by a third of the globe as no better than Imperialist Bullyboys, just ask the Chinese (who even to this day think all Brits are murderous drug dealing whoremasters).  We redeemed our nations soul, thanks to Churchill, but it seems that this is now forgotten.

Wish we had an Obama to give us a vision of ourselves, that we could start believing in ourselves as a nation as we once did.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2008, 06:25:44 AM by {SLDF} Heretic »


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Offline Rockstone

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Re: Shoes thrown at President Bush during his visit it Baghdad!
« Reply #38 on: December 25, 2008, 05:41:39 PM »
If you wish for Obama, you can have him.  :-\


I'll take McCain, Barr, or better yet- myself as president.


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Offline Exanimous

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Re: Shoes thrown at President Bush during his visit it Baghdad!
« Reply #39 on: December 25, 2008, 10:21:55 PM »
Very well-thought arguments from both sides, and impressive knowledge from Rockstone, I would never think that you're only 14. I'm sure your putting your abilities to good use :) Or at least I hope so.

But one thing that irks me about the current economy is the media hype. The economy would not be in the state it is in if the media was non-existent. The media contributes greatly to public thought, and when they talk negatively about the economy, and mention all these big financial problems and downfalls, of course people, seeing the news, will become more conservative with their money. This in turn reflects on the economy, and the media perception becomes worse, it's a vicious cycle. I remember reading that the percentage drop in the United States GDP this year so far was only -.5 percent, whereas last year it was up 7 percent. This means a total gain of 6.5 percent over the last two years. Not quite indicative of a recession, but negativity in the media can certainly lead people astray.

This is the interesting article from where I got my information: http://townhall.com/columnists/ThomasSowell/2008/11/25/jolting_the_economy

Offline Rockstone

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Re: Shoes thrown at President Bush during his visit it Baghdad!
« Reply #40 on: December 26, 2008, 12:45:29 AM »
Thanks! :D

As for the media hype; I agree. Of course, it didn't help much that the government admitted we are in a recession.
I do not have any emotions, only an emotion processor.

"You fool- you are recalibrating the Holovid just to please me"

"When you are faced with a fight like that, it is best to dodge AWAY from the shot, not into it."

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Offline (TLL) Heretic

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Re: Shoes thrown at President Bush during his visit it Baghdad!
« Reply #41 on: December 26, 2008, 12:54:45 AM »
Self-Image and long term goals are surely the indicators of long-term stability.  A democracy needs hero's to make us believe in our democracy, be they Cincinnatus, Caractacus or Barack Obama, in many ways it's better for a nation if they do not live long enough to fulfill their potential (ie JFK, or the Gracchi brothers). We need that image, to believe in our democracies.  And when we cease to believe then the dictator takes hold.

The fundamentals of any economy can be solid, but if people no longer have confidence in a shared vision then it'll quickly turn to decay.  Conversely if the people believe then almost anything is possible.  The strength and the weakness of our democracies are the same thing.

P.S. check out Caractacus if you liked Cincinnatus, he stood befor ethe Roman senate, in chains, and after telling them that his death would mean nothing and that his people (the Brits) would fight to the end rather than be Romans he said:

"If the degree of my nobility and fortune had been matched by moderation in success, I would have come to this City as a friend rather than a captive, nor would you have disdained to receive with a treaty of peace one sprung from brilliant ancestors and commanding a great many nations. But my present lot, disfiguring as it is for me, is magnificent for you. I had horses, men, arms, and wealth: what wonder if I was unwilling to lose them? If you wish to command everyone, does it really follow that everyone should accept your slavery? If I were now being handed over as one who had surrendered immediately, neither my fortune nor your glory would have achieved brilliance. It is also true that in my case any reprisal will be followed by oblivion. On the other hand, if you preserve me safe and sound, I shall be an eternal example of your clemency"

He got a villa in Rome, and became a national celebrity!!!!


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"Make this game my way, because I HAVE A DISORDER!" - VictorMorson
".....show us on the doll where MWLL touched you bad." - KingLeer

Offline Exanimous

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Re: Shoes thrown at President Bush during his visit it Baghdad!
« Reply #42 on: December 26, 2008, 01:25:48 AM »
Perhaps the most inspiring thing I've read today. Too bad the value of spoken language isn't what it used to be. It's texty messages... and forums... and not Roman ones, either :-D.

Offline Rockstone

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Re: Shoes thrown at President Bush during his visit it Baghdad!
« Reply #43 on: December 26, 2008, 01:32:54 AM »
Is Obama really a hero though?
I do not have any emotions, only an emotion processor.

"You fool- you are recalibrating the Holovid just to please me"

"When you are faced with a fight like that, it is best to dodge AWAY from the shot, not into it."

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Offline (TLL) Heretic

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Re: Shoes thrown at President Bush during his visit it Baghdad!
« Reply #44 on: December 26, 2008, 06:49:54 PM »
Don't know if everyones seen this already

http://www.sockandawe.com/


Pecuniam non olet
Quid enim saluis infamia nummis

"Make this game my way, because I HAVE A DISORDER!" - VictorMorson
".....show us on the doll where MWLL touched you bad." - KingLeer