Winning a standoff

[Barbaric Soul]

all your points are notable, and in the situations you laid out, camping isn't exactly the proper tactic to use. But, what do you do when a team gets the lead in the game and pulls back to a defensive position leaving the other team the only option of running out in the open trying to reach the winning team? Any team in a league format will camp when they have the lead if they really care about winning, unless thier oponent is just straight outclassed and didn't have a chance to win in the first place(because of pilot skill)

BTW, about the single flag idea, personally I would set my team up to destroy the oposing team as they tried to reach the flag. I really would not care much about capturing the flag, but would be more interested in using the flag as bait for the other team.

[Stalker]

BTW, about the single flag idea, personally I would set my team up to destroy the oposing team as they tried to reach the flag. I really would not care much about capturing the flag, but would be more interested in using the flag as bait for the other team.

That's how I pictured things working out when one team tried to avoid battle.  Because you know where they have to move to, you have every advantage in setting up a fire position to intercept them.  It actually becomes a disadvantage to avoid battle because your opponent can select the ground he will ambush you on so that his own mechs have the advantage in range and firepower.  Once people figured that out by losing, they would stop camping at all.  Both teams would be motivated to control the field if only top stop their opponent from having sole control and the freedom to establish an ambush.

Won't the aerotech aspect of MWLL reduce the chances of teams camping???...aerotech are the ultimate scouts...heavily armed ones at that...its gonna be hard to hide, IMHO.  Just call in the target...I think a lot of us forget about that.

Aero units won't change this behavior and depending on their capabilities, they mght even encourage it.  The problem isn't usually not knowing where the enemy is, you can always find them sooner or later.  The problem is they can choose a protected location that perfectly suits their weapons and skills (or lack of) and there is no way to attack them other than at point blank range  by entering into their position yourself.

My advice to Stalker... is to become a league admin and voice these concerns he has, and get the rules changed.

I have played in numerous leagues and they all try and address this issue in different ways, the problem is any rule that defines a default winner when mechs from both sides are still alive will be abused by the side that knows they can win by not fighting.  Whether you base it on points or the tonnage destroyed or the number of mechs destroyed or any other measurable factor, there are ways to abuse the rules and win by avoiding combat.  The reason no rule exists to solve this problem is that it is impossible to solve with rules alone.  For any rule you can think up, I can show you how it can be used to cheat the system by avoiding battle.  Unless there is a physical control point or some other method of demonstrating you are the dominant team on the map, this problem will persist.

as for camping generally, you'll never get rid of it, you just learn who you like playing against and who you don't

This idea DOES get rid of it.  Camping becomes a disadvantage because at some point you will have to move and when you do the other team will already have its ambush in place.

[PukinDog]

"The problem is they can choose a protected location that perfectly suits their weapons and skills (or lack of) and there is no way to attack them other than at point blank range  by entering into their position yourself." ---by Stalker


Picking an advantageous location for your team and skill set is a part of battle, my friend.  Would you like some examples...here's one, Gettysburg.

If you want this game to reflect any "realism" of battle...that equation is paramount, we are not really firing PPC's now, are we?

I suggest that if you want to do away with being able to position your team strategically, then just stop all the pretty map development and we all should wage war on a flat dinner plate, like MW2 (most of the time).

It sounds like you don't like strategy at all, and prefer simple "twitcher" style of play.

If you want to get rid of campers, OK, but doing it with a single "victory location" ala MSCFS 3......?  So, the first team to the flag will most undoubtedly win EVERY BATTLE, if they have time to set up...and EVERY BATTLE will be the same "Race to the Flag".  How is this not true? explain...I saw the post ^ further above, and you didn't answer the question.

IMHO

[Cauldron Borne]

"The problem is they can choose a protected location that perfectly suits their weapons and skills (or lack of) and there is no way to attack them other than at point blank range  by entering into their position yourself." ---by Stalker


Picking an advantageous location for your team and skill set is a part of battle, my friend.  Would you like some examples...here's one, Gettysburg.

If you want this game to reflect any "realism" of battle...that equation is paramount, we are not really firing PPC's now, are we?

I suggest that if you want to do away with being able to position your team strategically, then just stop all the pretty map development and we all should wage war on a flat dinner plate, like MW2 (most of the time).

It sounds like you don't like strategy at all, and prefer simple "twitcher" style of play.

If you want to get rid of campers, OK, but doing it with a single "victory location" ala MSCFS 3......?  So, the first team to the flag will most undoubtedly win EVERY BATTLE, if they have time to set up...and EVERY BATTLE will be the same "Race to the Flag".  How is this not true? explain...I saw the post ^ further above, and you didn't answer the question.

IMHO

Turns ANY map like this into some kinda drag race. Hence fastest equipment wins. So mediums loaded to the hilt with long range weapons as some kind of strike/ holding force. Backd by Heavy's that are quick. Or perhaps a huge rush of savana masters :O

[Stalker]

Picking an advantageous location for your team and skill set is a part of battle, my friend.  Would you like some examples...here's one, Gettysburg.

If you want this game to reflect any "realism" of battle...that equation is paramount, we are not really firing PPC's now, are we?

I suggest that if you want to do away with being able to position your team strategically, then just stop all the pretty map development and we all should wage war on a flat dinner plate, like MW2 (most of the time).

It sounds like you don't like strategy at all, and prefer simple "twitcher" style of play.

http://www.geocities.com/akstalker2004/tactics.html

Read that, then you can get back to me on what I think about tactics.

If you want to get rid of campers, OK, but doing it with a single "victory location" ala MSCFS 3......?  So, the first team to the flag will most undoubtedly win EVERY BATTLE, if they have time to set up...and EVERY BATTLE will be the same "Race to the Flag".  How is this not true? explain...I saw the post ^ further above, and you didn't answer the question.

I'll explain it very slowly for you.

The flag is deliberatly placed in an exposed and vulnerable position.
If you stand near the flag, you can be hit by surprise from all sides.
Standing near the flag gets you dead.

Perhaps if you'd ever played in a NR league you'd understand why this issue is a constant problem and how useful such a simple solution would be.

The ONLY purpose of the flag is to resolve the winner in such cases where the timer counts down to zero and both sides are still alive.  You can own the flag for 59 minutes and 59 seconds but if your opponent has control in the last second of the hour, they win.  Owning the flag is WORTHLESS for the entire duration of the game except for when it ends.  To own the flag at the end of the game means exposing yourself to the risk of being hit and destroyed.  Only the stronger team can do this with any safety.  This prevents the weaker team winning by default and gaming the rules. 

Some people seem to think this "flag" idea has something to do with capture the flag or acts to give you points towards victory or something.  It doesn't.  Owning it during the game gives you nothing and means nothing.  It's as valuable as "owning" a tree.  It only matters when the game ends and only if you physically control it. 

[PukinDog]

Its amazing the clarity with which you just explained yourself.  Here we've been trying to read your mind.  I'm glad you took the time to do so, as now, I agree with you, and think this could be a viable solution.

As long as the "flag" has no purpose UNTIL the game timer runs out...it could work.

On a further note, I have played in NR leagues before, namely NBT-HC, and I DO understand the problem...it's also amazing what insight is afforded if you'd read my other posts further up the thread.^^^

I totally understand the problems of "Hiding" which is NOT "camping".  Setting up an ambush is "camping"...not "hiding"...but the team on the losing end of the ambush ALWAYS considers it "HIDING".

I can tell which end you are usually on.

Thank You sir.

Well bargained and done!

[Ghiest]

So basically a glorified king of the hill, it gets boring and fast.

[Stalker]

Ghiest, you can probably stop posting to this thread because you clearly have no understanding of what I am talking about.

[Luger]

I think Stalker was a bit jaded by previous experiences here with ideas to fully expound the virtues of what he was proposing, or was at least avoiding the kind of time commitment involved to fully explain what he was thinking.

This kind of idea could be implemented via league support as well.  Map development will be at a premium later if MWLL takes off like other mechwarrior games have so we could still see a solution like this later on when league support comes along.

Hopefully we'll see something by this summer to see how the product does.

[Flyingdebris]

I think you guys should wait until you play before worrying about complicated solutions to probelms that don't exist yet.  The simple inclusion of aerospace means that no one is totally safe anywhere.

[TuRbOlAg]

Won't the aerotech aspect of MWLL reduce the chances of teams camping???...aerotech are the ultimate scouts...heavily armed ones at that...its gonna be hard to hide, IMHO.  Just call in the target...I think a lot of us forget about that.

Aero units won't change this behavior and depending on their capabilities, they mght even encourage it.  The problem isn't usually not knowing where the enemy is, you can always find them sooner or later.  The problem is they can choose a protected location that perfectly suits their weapons and skills (or lack of) and there is no way to attack them other than at point blank range  by entering into their position yourself.

TAG aerospace and ELRM catapults would respectfully disagree.   

[Stahlseele]

Hmm . . if you were good enough, could you capture a flag with aerospace? O.o

[Ghiest]

First don't take the intellectual high ground with me, I first said that I have little experiance in MW battles (which was and is evident) but my experiance in the last few decades with lan and multiplay matches numbering in the thousands, I think I have a pretty firm grasp on tactics as a whole.

Ghiest, you can probably stop posting to this thread because you clearly have no understanding of what I am talking about.

Oh I understand, you don't like lesser skilled people taking advantage of rules of the leagues to even the odds and are trying to produce a discussion on how to avoid such things.  Fact is though until play the beta there is little or no way you can say this will happen in MW:LL with any certainty.  I applaud your effort to try and bring a discussion up about it now whilst the maps are constantly changing.  So many times I have played maps designed by committee or by those who think they know what is best for multi player games with out knowing the psychology behind how most multi player matches actually go.

I read your 'tictacs' and although I think some of them are fundamentally flawed you seem to know what you're on about overall, which is refreshing as far as forum retards go

Don't get me wrong though I don't think the flag idea will work, people will always take advantage of flaws in rules, setups and games to give them the advantage.  From min-maxing to cheating it's all hard to be rid of things like that but I honestly think you are going about it the wrong way.

I think the main flaw as you have already put ..

the problem is any rule that defines a default winner when mechs from both sides are still alive will be abused

I think it's leagues that need to recognize the problem rather than the game itself.

The ONLY purpose of the flag is to resolve the winner in such cases where the timer counts down to zero and both sides are still alive.  You can own the flag for 59 minutes and 59 seconds but if your opponent has control in the last second of the hour, they win.  Owning the flag is WORTHLESS for the entire duration of the game except for when it ends.

You say I don't have a clue what you are on about but this is essence is a glorified (or highly simplified version) of king of the hill, flag or control points are put usually on a hill (as to where it gets its name) or in a open area and it's the job of one team to hold that point and the other team take the point from them, wether there is a point counter for how long you have held the 'point' or till the team is a) destroyed or b) time runs out and who has control of the point it's still king of the hill.

On the flip side this totally negates any form of using tactics apart from the "throw yourself at the enemy" in the dying seconds of the battle to try and take the point and matches will always come down to that.

The flag is deliberatly placed in an exposed and vulnerable position.
If you stand near the flag, you can be hit by surprise from all sides.

Because there is a flag out in the open (as you suggest) and there is little way you can say sneak up or out flank them and being the end of the match the chances of two way or multi attack will fail because half the force is a) dead or b) damaged to the point where it's pointless.  My point was/is... that is pretty much boring predictable outcome of how a match will end.

[(TLL)Cowking]

Won't the aerotech aspect of MWLL keep teams from camping...you basically have the ultimate scouts...and heavily armed ones at that...its gonna be hard to hide, IMHO.

True.  Most well rounded battle groups will have at least one Aerotech or battle armor to scout around if the opposing team can't be located.  I'd volunteer for that role.

BA would most likely be less effective on account of them being restricted running speed(not all the much faster jjing i think). I would suggest a VTOL or Hovercraft instead as a better choice. (You can still get out of it and go for a closer look in BA if you want.)

[Stalker]

I first said that I have little experiance in MW battles (which was and is evident) but my experiance in the last few decades with lan and multiplay matches numbering in the thousands, I think I have a pretty firm grasp on tactics as a whole.

It's unlikely that you do.  Having played both multiplayer FPS games and Mechwarrior extensively I can tell you the tactics for each are notably different and in general, not transferable.  A team that tries to use FPS style tactics to play mechwarrior is going to be annihilated by a team that has adapted its tactics specifically to this game.  I have had countless discussions with Mechwarrior players who are serving army personnel and who will loudly claim that squad tactics (such as they have been trained in presumably) don't work in Mechwarrior and thus they believe, Mechwarrior has no viable tactics.  And they are right, squad based tactics don't work in general.

Oh I understand, you don't like lesser skilled people taking advantage of rules of the leagues to even the odds and are trying to produce a discussion on how to avoid such things.

Deliberately avoiding combat is not evening the odds.  It is gaming the rules of the league.  Most leagues already forbid it but don't ya know, people just love "ambushing" by hiding in some hole for the entire game and not fighting.  They deliberately break the spirit AND the letter of the rules to gain an unfair advantage.

Fact is though until play the beta there is little or no way you can say this will happen in MW:LL with any certainty.

I'd put money down that it will happen because it is in the nature of some people to try and cheat the system by bending the rules to breaking point.  It's not like MWLL is some crazy new concept no one can understand.  It's the same game that Mechwarrior has always been and so it will be governed by the same general principles that Mechwarrior has always operated with. 

I read your 'tictacs' and although I think some of them are fundamentally flawed you seem to know what you're on about overall, which is refreshing as far as forum retards go

I appreciate that you took the time to read it but I will say the tactics I outlined are what works in Mechwarrior.  They may not work in other games, but then I'm not writing for other games.

I think it's leagues that need to recognize the problem rather than the game itself.

Leagues do recognise the problem, that's why they take steps to outlaw this kind of behavior.  But people being people, some will always try to cheat the system and unless you outlaw standing still, camping some hole remains "ambushing" in the eye of the beholder.  They know they are cheating the spirit of the rules but it's hard to prove what a person is thinking.

This could be a simple feature that doesn't even appear on the map unless you check a box for league play.  It's not like I am suggesting reworking every map into a moonscape.  The code is the same for each map so once it's written, all you have to do is place the flag coordinates.  I'm sure league players can even implement this feature themselves if it comes to it. 

You say I don't have a clue what you are on about but this is essence is a glorified (or highly simplified version) of king of the hill, flag or control points are put usually on a hill (as to where it gets its name) or in a open area and it's the job of one team to hold that point and the other team take the point from them, wether there is a point counter for how long you have held the 'point' or till the team is a) destroyed or b) time runs out and who has control of the point it's still king of the hill.

Take it from someone who has played a lot of Mechwarrior.  It is not king of the hill, it has nothing to do with king of the hill and games will not turn into king of the hill by default.  I know what league play looks like.  No league team except for perhaps a team composed entirely of morons is going to camp the flag.  If the flag is sited properly, it's a death sentence to be near it.  90% of units do not cheat in the way I described and so it will make no difference to league play at all for them.  This is only to catch out the 10% that ruin the experience for everyone else.