Author Topic: Mech-Gears  (Read 3093 times)

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Online Flyingdebris

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Re: Mech-Gears
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2009, 11:39:29 PM »
when putting in a feature into a game, you have to weigh the benefits, potential issues,  and the costs.

what are the benefits of this? 

certain specific mechs look cooler when not in combat because they are using their arms when walking.

what are the potential issues? 

you are gonna look goofy as hell the second you torso twist. useless for mechs lacking arms or featuring bizarre non humanoid physiology. its one more button thats got to be bound.

the costs?

its gonna require new sets of animation, craploads more code, and each mech where it'd apply would need a unique one,

verdict, this doesn't really add anything significant enough to justify, sorry dude.  It only worked in mech commander cause it was 3rd person rts style.
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Offline Doctor Baron

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Re: Mech-Gears
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2009, 11:42:45 PM »
I guess I didn't realize the workload that would need to go into it. Okay scratch the animations.

But it does seem like people wouldn't mind seeing different operational modes in the battlemechs (accuracy/speed/overcharge etc).

How feasible is that?
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Offline (TLL)Nick

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Re: Mech-Gears
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2009, 11:43:52 PM »
That's what Crysis is for...

Offline Doctor Baron

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Re: Mech-Gears
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2009, 11:46:03 PM »
That's what Crysis is for...
It would add more depth to MWLL.

Mechs wouldnt just be big walking tanks. Theyd be a ton more versatile and adaptable to battlefield situations in addition to their already customizable loadouts.
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Offline Bcbear

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Re: Mech-Gears
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2009, 04:31:32 AM »
Well, i don't know about the whole "power shift" idea.... I mean, this isn't star trek, the engine cant be pushed past its limits without causing damage to the mech (hence, MASC, and if you don't know what MASC is:
Myomer Accelerator Signal Circuitry is a piece of equipment that allows a BattleMech to move twice its walking speed. However, actuators were not built for this kind of stress, and prolonged usage of MASC systems can lock up the actuators in a 'Mech, and cause it to be immobilized.)

That's what happens when you push the Mech past its limits, PLUS the heat buildup it causes.

And as for increased accuracy, that's a matter of components, Regular gyros on mechs have a certain level of stability, as opposed to Advanced gyros, which take up more tonnage, BUT they decrease weapon sway at all speeds, making it easier to fire while moving, as well as decreasing the likelihood of gyro overload (knockdown).

So while it is a good idea, I don't think it really fits in with Mechwarrior. There are already mech components that do the things that you suggest, and if you give the ability for every mech to have these abilities at will.... it kind of makes the parts useless, making the mechs that can mount them less unique and less powerful in their specific roles.
But don't get me wrong, it isn't a bad idea, Ive seen many good games with that mechanic (crysis being one of them)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 04:39:50 AM by Bcbear »

Offline (TLL)Highlander

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Re: Mech-Gears
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2009, 04:44:43 AM »
Ummm that would be like.. Downgrading battle mechs to useless hunks of junk that walk super slow on the battlefield lol. Battlemechs are meant to have mobility, thats their main advantage, doin this, defeats that purpose.

 If you wanna go slower when yer shooting.. Just slow down! You don't have to run max speed at all times, get yourself a joystick with throttle, goin abit slower will give  you better aim but let the enemy hit you more too.

Totally agree. The raising of arms would be... interesting but the only use would be to bring the arm mounted weapons to bear (rawr! purposeful synonym replacement!!) over a strangely perfect sized building for such an occasion...
But the slowing down thing, kinda stupid. I mean lets relate this to real life, if your retarded enough to not being able to handle walking and shooting at the same time then there is something wrong with you. Sure your aim will decrease but you can still sprint while shooting. If you want to increase accuracy, slow down. Hmm funny how humanoid machines relate to organic humanoids.

PS: I'm not calling YOU retarded, I mean no offense in any way but if a squish brained human can do something (some of us are pretty stupid) as simple as multitasking, I'm pretty sure a giant super complex machine can do it to.
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Offline Valaska

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Re: Mech-Gears
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2009, 10:46:53 AM »
 lol and MASC also has the habbit of making your actuators EXPLODE if you use it too long as well lol, so seize up, explode, or just rip your engine to pieces.


 And i read something about someone saying CBT translating the speed accuracy etc.. Well that's already factored in.. By YOU, you the pilot, the faster you are moving, the faster you have to aim, adjust and react! That's what the +1-2.. Even +5 hah, some mechs are very fast.. Modifier comes from, that pilot has to aim. This is already built into the game by each pilot being different and having better reaction times etc..

 Slowing it all down etc, simply is like making it all needlessly easy, and as Bcbear put it so well, Mech's got stuff that fix's any need for.. Over clock etc mode like those gundams.. Actually I don't know if gundams have different modes that they have to travel just to fire but it just sounds like something silly that they would have in it.
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Offline Ghiest

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Re: Mech-Gears
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2009, 11:58:24 AM »
Nah as far as I remember there was only a walking/running gunnery skill modifier (+1 walking +2 running).  Well at least in the battletech manual I have (I don't have the latest bastardized cbt one I suspect).

Offline Nebfer

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Re: Mech-Gears
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2009, 03:23:31 AM »
Lets see There is walking speeds with the +1 heat. Running speeds with is 50% faster than walking for a +2 heat. There is also MASC which doubles your walking speed. (TSM is the same as MASC). A mech can also Sprint Which provided the same benefit as MASC (2x walking speed) at a cost of +3 heat and being unable to attack any targets during that turn (due to the pilot consentrating on keeping the mech upright and what not) He is also slightly easier to hit as he is not consentrating on avoiding attacks as well (a -1 to hit modifier).

Now you might be wondering what good is MASC then? well it stacks... insted of a 2x modifier for MASC it's now 2.5.

Example a 5/8 mech with MASC (or TSM) activated would be capable of 5/8(10). Sprinting with MASC (or TSM) active the mech would be capable of 5/8(10/13)

This also stacks with a Supercharger which then allows a 3x modifier...

In short the various movement modifiers for Mechs

Run = 1.5x walking
MASC = 2x Walk
TSM = 2x Walk
Sprint = 2x Walk
Sprint+ TSM/MASC = 2.5 walk
Sprint +TSM/MASC + Supercharger = 3x walk

So that 95 ton Executioner (4/6 with MASC) is in reality capable of moving at 108kph when going all out.
Then there is the Firemoth at 10/15 (162kph) is allready fast enough but with MASC and sprinting enabled it's pushing 270kph!

Offline TuRbOlAg

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Re: Mech-Gears
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2009, 05:16:33 AM »
I'm not too into the whole changing stance part of this suggestion, but in my opinion that power shift idea should be considered.  It could come with a penalty as well.  Overcharge the energy weapons too often and they begin to destroy themselves, put too much power to the speed and your mech begins to overheat or lockup for a few seconds.

One thing I keep hearing is how the Devs want to make this more than 'The next mech game', that they want this one to stand out.  Part of this can be accomplished by integrating ideas like these.  Obviously there needs to be a limit, we are still working with the battletech/mechwarrior canon here, but that doesn't mean they are limited to it.  At least not in my mind.
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Offline Valaska

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Re: Mech-Gears
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2009, 05:33:34 AM »
Nah as far as I remember there was only a walking/running gunnery skill modifier (+1 walking +2 running).  Well at least in the battletech manual I have (I don't have the latest bastardized cbt one I suspect).

 The latest CBT rules are virtually the same just been so long since I played last... Less you mean Max tech?
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Offline Ghiest

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Re: Mech-Gears
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2009, 04:08:59 PM »
I'm not too into the whole changing stance part of this suggestion, but in my opinion that power shift idea should be considered.  It could come with a penalty as well.  Overcharge the energy weapons too often and they begin to destroy themselves, put too much power to the speed and your mech begins to overheat or lockup for a few seconds.

One thing I keep hearing is how the Devs want to make this more than 'The next mech game', that they want this one to stand out.  Part of this can be accomplished by integrating ideas like these.  Obviously there needs to be a limit, we are still working with the battletech/mechwarrior canon here, but that doesn't mean they are limited to it.  At least not in my mind.

But they still want it to be battletech.  If you start implementing stuff at random it becomes 'the next mech game' rather than the next mechwarrior game people want to play because they know and love the system it's based on and follows.

Offline TuRbOlAg

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Re: Mech-Gears
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2009, 07:04:01 PM »
The problem is finding the line between what is acceptable and not.  I am without doubt one of the most liberal here when it comes to following battletech.  I'm not saying it shouldn't be done or that a game doing so won't be any good, it'll be awesome regardless, but I'm all for implementing improvements or changes that would make things more interesting.  That's just me though.  :P
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Offline =KoS=Zeus

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Re: Mech-Gears
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2009, 11:36:20 PM »
Energy weapons are already too powerful, there is no need to give them even more versatility by allowing players to supercharge them at the penalty of greater heat, it simply encourages hit and fade tactics even more like pop tarts that jump, alpha strike, shutdown mid air, and land behind cover to cool off.

There are two different penalties in CBT applied to movement, one of them I don't think the mechwarrior games really accurately portray.

There is enemy movement, which is based on the speed of the enemy mech. This is handled fairly well, especially with having to lead targets with PPC and ballistic weapons.

Then there is your own movement, which boils down to stationary, walking, running, and jumping.
Stationary applies no penalty.
Walking is ~66% of your maximum speed and applies a +1 penalty, equivalent to firing at a target moving ~30kph
Running is ~67+% of your maximum speed and applies a +2 penalty, equivalent to firing at a target moving ~50kph
Jumping is, well, using your jump jets, and applies a +3 penalty, equivalent to firing at a target moving ~70kph

This is what I'm talking about with having "weapon sway" or just a really bumpy ride. Think of most FPS games now-a-days. If you try shooting your weapon while running and jumping, your cross hairs get HUGE and your rounds could fly all over the place inside that expanded area. If you drop prone your cross hairs get tight, and your accuracy increases. In mechwarrior, however, your cross hairs never shrink or bulge, but they should, it's a big walking man-shaped machine. It has certain physics like hip, arm, and torso sway in order to keep balance, especially at high speeds. Your weapons should suffer some accuracy issues while running, or, especially, jumping, such that even hitting a stationary target is no longer "easy".

It is this factor that makes assault mechs friggin' scary in the tabletop. They have the armor to sit stationary and blaze away at a light mech, while that light mech MUST keep moving at maximum speed just to stay alive, thus making it more difficult for the light mech to land shots into the assault mech.

This is the strategy that mechs like the Awesome were designed for. They find a defensible position, and stand on it, and blast away with their PPCs at anything that gets into range. The only way to dislodge them is to get closer, and that requires enemy mechs to close range, preferably fast mechs so they don't get torn to pieces. But fast mechs are generally light on armor and armament, so even when they get into range they aren't making mincemeat of the Awesome.  This is basic CBT strategy.

Now, there are game balance issues at work here. Throw them out the window. The balancing factor is C-Bills. An Awesome should destroy a Commando. Gunnery skill might dictate that the Commando lands a few more hits, but there is little a pilot can do to stop the inevitable PPC massacre coming his way. This is akin to putting a Humvee up against a MBT. There is a reason the MBT costs excessively more than the Humvee, because war isn't fair.

Offline (TLL)Cowking

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Re: Mech-Gears
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2009, 12:23:16 AM »
Also when light mechs close in distance with a assault you have to remember, if the assault gets into melee range your done for lol, but of course MWLL won't have that (I hope a future MW game would include it because it would be Awesome to socker puncher somebody with an Atlas)  :D :D

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