Author Topic: Ammunition  (Read 2549 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline =KoS=Zeus

  • Star Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 1476
  • Karma: 69
  • Knight of the Inner Sphere
Ammunition
« on: June 18, 2009, 07:40:56 AM »
Will ammunition based weapons be given a 200% increase per ton like they were in MW4:Mercs, or will limited ammunition play a major role in mechs that mount them, balanced by the fact that they will generally be cheaper?

I'm mainly talking autocannons here, like the 2, 5 and 10 versus the hyper expensive ultras, LBXs and gauss rifles.

Offline Diablo48

  • Lance Captain
  • ***
  • Posts: 517
  • Karma: 0
Re: Ammunition
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2009, 04:12:40 AM »
Hm, that brings up another question that's been in the back of my mind for a while now.  How will Machine Gun ammo be handled?  In the other MW games they gave they guns about what CBT gives them, except they allow you to fire it off at machine gun speed so you need a lot of ammo to keep them operational, while in CBT the Machine Gun can basically fire until you loose either the gun or its ammo because you get 200 rounds of fire for 1 ton with 1 gun, while an AC 20 will only get 5 rounds with that much ammo.  When you factor in the weapon damage, you discover that 1 ton of machine gun ammo can deal 4 times the amount of damage as 1 ton of AC 20 ammo, but it takes 40 times as long to do it.  I hope that MWLL will have near infinite ammo for the machine guns like CBT to keep them useful in comparison to the pulse lasers for anti-BA work.

Offline Bcbear

  • Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 129
  • Karma: 0
Re: Ammunition
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2009, 08:22:02 AM »
Well if the machine guns have near infinite ammo........ why use pulse lasers at all for attacking Battle Armour?
The whole point of munition-based weapons is their use of....... munitions.
And if the ammo never runs out.... then what's the point?

The playtesting will find out what quantities of ammo per ton work best.

In CBT, they have near infinite to keep them on par with the pulse lasers.....
How do we know if they even need that much ammo to keep on par in MWLL?
...We Don't...
So let's not assume.

Offline LocustPilot

  • Bondsman
  • *
  • Posts: 34
  • Karma: 0
  • My other car is a HNT-151 Hornet
Re: Ammunition
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2009, 08:56:05 AM »
Machineguns in BT have always been hard to translate into a real-time game.

In 10 seconds they do 2 points of damage. But does the MG operate by firing continuously for 10 seconds, or is it a burst of fire? Most machine guns are not designed for ten full seconds of continuous firing. Your typical 'big green lunchbox' style .50BMG ammo container only holds 105 rounds of linked ammunition. This will be eaten up in 7 seconds of continuous firing by an M2 machine gun.

The Browning machine guns mounted in Sperry turrets (See the Sperry Browning MGs the Locust carries) could shoot 141 rounds in 10 seconds.

I'd argue for burst fire and make the time you can fire, versus the 'cool down time' (not for the mech, but theoretically to keep the barrels from losing their rifling) comparable to a Small Pulse Laser, as implemented in the game.

What do you think?

---

Offline Lord Samurai MC

  • Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 88
  • Karma: 0
Re: Ammunition
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2009, 09:42:31 AM »
I don't know much, but one thing I can suggest is that you want to give ammo based weapons low amounts of ammo per ton, and beam weapons high heat per shot. That will lower the effectiveness of boats since boating any one type of weapon ends up being inefficient - if you boat ballistics/missles you're going to need so much ammo it generally won't be worth the tonnage, and if you boat beam weapons you'll need so many heatsinks it probably won't be worth it either.

The exceptions are mechs that boat weapons naturally. For example an awesome/novacat is a natural beam weapon boat, giving it better heat capacity than normal (which I read was going to be done somewhere) helps to reserve it for that role.   

Offline =KoS=Zeus

  • Star Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 1476
  • Karma: 69
  • Knight of the Inner Sphere
Re: Ammunition
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2009, 07:29:26 PM »
The huge balancing factor, in my mind, is the cost.

An Awesome with 3 PPCs costs much more than an Awesome with 3 AC/10s. Their damage output is similar, but the ACs suffer from limited range and ammunition problems, while the PPCs cause heat spikes.

I like Lord Samurai MC's point that boating should lead to inefficiency, thus promoting the use of multi-weapon type platforms, but I don't think certain mechs should be more boat worthy than others, that just means they become the only mechs used.

Offline Flyingdebris

  • Bushy B is my homeboy
  • MWLL Contributor
  • Living Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 2396
  • Karma: 135
Re: Ammunition
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2009, 08:05:11 PM »
the problem with MGs within BT, is that within the framework of rules and relative to everything else, they are nigh impossible to accurately translate if you try to stick to the rules.  Here is why.

Weapon weights and space system.  Battletech has massive amounts of leeway regarding space. But never factors in the logistics or engineering.  So technically you can have an arm packed with MGs sucking ammo all the way the other side of the mech, no problem.  doesn't matter if you have 8 ammo feeds running through a shoulder

Multiple hits.  what justifies an ultra ac or rotary getting multiple hits? A relatively faster ROF.  but MGs have really fast ROFs already.  But their damage is only treated as striking one area.  Doesn't really give the feel of sweeping an area with mg fire, does it?

Armor penetration does not work that way. Ablative or no.  Anything designed to deal with a hypervelocity slug the size of a melon, is not gonna give to 1 mg or 20. Armor penetration comes from force, not volume. If it CAN penetrate, volume helps.  But its often better to just buy a larger gun unless you want to shoot down low flying aircraft.

MGs don't relfect how fast they burn through ammo.  200 rounds in cbt terms  is technically enough ammo to last for 33 minutes if you are going off 10 seconds per turn, but at the same 200 is nothing at all if you are treating each shot as 1 bullet and firing on auto.

fubar range system.  MGs IRL can fire accurately, anywhere within several hundred meters with iron sights to a few kilometers with long range sights.  But if cbt had that, then logically the acs would need a boost too leading to even more messed up stuff.

MGs even being used against armor.  Why?  it would be like using a tank covered in assault rifles to fight other tanks now.  Let the ACs deal the low end of ballistic damage table.  Save MGs for aircraft, light vehicles, and infantry.
Wherever mechs are needed, I am there

Offline SeniorBiscuit

  • Lance Sergeant
  • **
  • Posts: 369
  • Karma: 0
Re: Ammunition
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2009, 08:17:31 PM »
Also in BT while a MG only does 2 points of damage to a mech in one turn, cant it do up to like 3d6 points of damage to an infantry platoon?

I dont care if those troops are in the open or not, thats ALOT of lead.

Offline Stahlseele

  • Living Legend
  • *******
  • Posts: 4114
  • Karma: 43
  • 2nd Level TechSupport Agent(BOFH)
Re: Ammunition
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2009, 08:48:19 PM »
MG's are still most dangerous to the user, because of the huge ammounts of hurts created when MG Ammo detonates . .
'any kind of discussion of randomness ALWAYS WILL EQUATE to being able to critically hit a mech's reactor by firing a micro beam laser while facing 80 degrees to the side, shooting the ground, which would cause a random explosion which would randomly crit his entire team's reactors which would randomly cause the server itself to explode which would randomly generate a strange quark which would randomly hit the earth and randomly randomness randomfapp the shit fapp random!'
------------------------------
CPU: Intel Core 2 Quad Q9650 @4x3GHz
Memory: GSkill 2x4Gb DDR3 1333Mhz
Video: MSI N580GTX Lightning Xtreme Edition 3072MB
HDD: 2xWD Velociraptor74Gig10k RPM SATA  RAID0; 1x WD Caviar Black 1TB, 1x WD Caviar Green 2TB
Monitor: 2x24" Widescreen 16:9 1920x1080 native resolution
Windows Vista

Offline =KoS= Eldragon

  • Living Legend
  • *******
  • Posts: 2327
  • Karma: 85
Re: Ammunition
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2009, 08:54:13 PM »
I think MGs with the optional rule where they do 1d6 damage and 3x round spent are the only way to make them even somewhat balanced (At least in tech level 2 and up). Otherwise its just a liability.

What would be interesting is if we get different ammunition types in a later release of MW:LL. Such as Thunder LRMs, or Precision and HE rounds for Autocannons.

Offline Stahlseele

  • Living Legend
  • *******
  • Posts: 4114
  • Karma: 43
  • 2nd Level TechSupport Agent(BOFH)
Re: Ammunition
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2009, 09:06:09 PM »
Probably no thunder, se Mines Discussion.
Precision . . maybe . . HE . . probable.
'any kind of discussion of randomness ALWAYS WILL EQUATE to being able to critically hit a mech's reactor by firing a micro beam laser while facing 80 degrees to the side, shooting the ground, which would cause a random explosion which would randomly crit his entire team's reactors which would randomly cause the server itself to explode which would randomly generate a strange quark which would randomly hit the earth and randomly randomness randomfapp the shit fapp random!'
------------------------------
CPU: Intel Core 2 Quad Q9650 @4x3GHz
Memory: GSkill 2x4Gb DDR3 1333Mhz
Video: MSI N580GTX Lightning Xtreme Edition 3072MB
HDD: 2xWD Velociraptor74Gig10k RPM SATA  RAID0; 1x WD Caviar Black 1TB, 1x WD Caviar Green 2TB
Monitor: 2x24" Widescreen 16:9 1920x1080 native resolution
Windows Vista

Offline =KoS=Zeus

  • Star Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 1476
  • Karma: 69
  • Knight of the Inner Sphere
Re: Ammunition
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2009, 09:07:43 PM »
Remember that all of the weapons are modified to be closer to the Solaris VII rules where a CBT turn is broken into four 2.5 second turns.

A PPC or Gauss Rifle takes 3 turns to recharge in that system, while a MG can fire every turn.

This means that in the same amount of time that a PPC or Gauss can fire off 2 shots, the MG has churned out 4 bursts, and before the PPC or Gauss can get a 3rd shot off, the MG has fired a total of 7 bursts.  Not bad for a weapon that weighs a fraction of the tonnage of the bigger weapons.

I've always viewed the ton of ammo being 200 bursts rather than 200 individual rounds. Each burst is basically firing off 4-5 kg of MG ammo, while your average 7.62 bullet weighs in at around 50 grams (with casing, feed chain, etc), that's roughly 100 bullets per burst, in 2.5 seconds, or 40 rps, 2,400 rpm. Sounds plausible for a mech mounted anti-infantry minigun.

Offline LocustPilot

  • Bondsman
  • *
  • Posts: 34
  • Karma: 0
  • My other car is a HNT-151 Hornet
Re: Ammunition
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2009, 11:56:26 PM »
@Zeus6S , I like those rules. They seem to ballance it out quite well.
---

Offline Rolan

  • Bondsman
  • *
  • Posts: 7
  • Karma: 0
  • Death is Not Far Enough
    • Rolan Viper
Re: Ammunition
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2009, 08:05:49 AM »
The models for the MGs are already in Crysis. They might just end up useing one of them to make it simple. I am not sure what the damage is but they do enough to take out infantry fast. There are several different models:

MG on the Jeep/Hummer thing the Koreans drive. It has unlimited ammo, but heats up and requires a cool down. It also fires at about 600rpm

Minigun that you can carry. This has limited ammo and i think it has a heat/cool cycle. It fires fast at about 2000rpm (im just taking a guess)

The alien Ice/minigun. Unlimited ammo but has heat/cool cycle. It fires at about the same speed as the Human Minigun

There is also the Minigun that is mounted in the APC (I dont remember if the APC is in Crysis or Crysis Warhead). This has a heat/cool cycle as well. Its rate of fire is much higher (about 4000rpm) and more accurate then the hand held version. 

Offline (TLL) Heretic

  • Living Legend
  • *******
  • Posts: 2210
  • Karma: 117
Re: Ammunition
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2009, 02:00:33 AM »
No FPS yet has simulated the mini-gun correctly....it's nerfed in EVERY game I can think of, crysis is no exception.


Pecuniam non olet
Quid enim saluis infamia nummis

"Make this game my way, because I HAVE A DISORDER!" - VictorMorson
".....show us on the doll where MWLL touched you bad." - KingLeer