Author Topic: [Balancing] Elemental Town in Battlespace  (Read 9577 times)

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Offline Boergen

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[Balancing] Elemental Town in Battlespace
« on: December 30, 2009, 11:01:28 PM »
Hi there,

first of all... I'm happy with how the mod looks and feels in beta already. The job you guys have done is awesome... but I'd like to share some thoughts about the game balancing concerning air units and elementals in general.

I understand the concept and the need of diversity.  Having only mechs is maybe a bit boring... but the current state of affairs is not funny any more.

If you ride a big, heavy, slow mech, say.. an Awesome, and you suddenly attract the attention of a tiny litte creature named Elemental, you have exactly _zero_ chance of getting out of that situation alive.   An elemental runs and jumps faster than a torso can turn, and you cannot look straight down with a mech.  So... it takes some minutes and then you're down.  At least you're crippled, if noone is there to help you.   A single elemental can wipe out a whole artillery star.

Next point on my hate list... the air units. Like I said.. I understand that in a modern game there have to be some alternatives... but with the current mechanisms it is just way too hard to track and bring down an air fighter.  A player that is determined and good at flying can roam around the battlefield and kill one mech after another.

On the last map, where after 45 minutes I left with an even score, I was only killed _once_ by a mech.  The other 10 kills were all done by elementals and fighters.

Don't get me wrong.  I am very happy with this mod overall.  But a mech mod should concentrate on mech warfare. Mechs, after the story line we all hold so dear, are supposed to be the kings and rulers of the battlefield.

Up until this build, which I like to call "Elemental Town In Battlespace", that is not true.  Especially the elementals are way too powerful.
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Offline DFDelta

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Re: [Balancing] Elemental Town in Battlespace
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2009, 11:06:34 PM »
This is why, in a combined arms game like MWLL, you always have someone in a mech/tank escorting you that is good in fighting BA or aeros.

MWLL is a team game, and going out solo in a mech with certain weak spots will attract someone who will exploit that.
This means going out solo in a mech vulnerable to BA will make BA players (like myself^^) attack you, having a Partisan with 4 AC5 next to you will make us run away

Reminds me of tonight, where our team of 3 BA took out 2 Atlas in a row^^
Was kinda funny to watch those big, slow helpless things trying to run away  ;D
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 11:16:32 PM by DFDelta »
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Offline KingLeerUK

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Re: [Balancing] Elemental Town in Battlespace
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2009, 11:10:58 PM »
As just mentioned above, don't go it alone.  An Awesome is purpose built for battling other 'Mechs and heavy tanks.  The fact that you are encountering difficulty taking out a Battle Armour is not just expected, it's by design.

Coordinate with your team to have your main 'Mech battlegroup accompanied by their own contingent of BA's and a couple of Partisans to take care of the aerospace threat.  Don't want to spare players as BA?  Have them take out 'Mechs equipped with flamers and MGs, they turn enemy BA into sweetly tenderised BBQ.  Also, there are aerospace variants designed specifically to take on other aerospace.  If you are continually being bombed by the firebomb Sulla, have one of your team go up in the beam laser Sulla variant.  It will make short work of an enemy Sulla that has no air-to-air offensive capabilities.
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Offline direwolf

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Re: [Balancing] Elemental Town in Battlespace
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2009, 11:19:23 PM »
I originally thought the same.  But, having played a few more games, I have changed my mind.  Team work is the key. 

With the right Mech, you can take down BA and Air units. 

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Re: [Balancing] Elemental Town in Battlespace
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2009, 11:51:32 PM »
And BA's do well to kill other BA's

Offline =Outlaw=

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Re: [Balancing] Elemental Town in Battlespace
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2009, 11:56:59 PM »
Am I the only one who thinks killing elementals is fun and really easy? I get ridiculous kill death ratios by taking out BAs who think they are invincible.
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Offline Starkk

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Re: [Balancing] Elemental Town in Battlespace
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2009, 12:01:07 AM »
Am I the only one who thinks killing elementals is fun and really easy? I get ridiculous kill death ratios by taking out BAs who think they are invincible.

Yeah I really haven't had a problem killing BAs in mechs...just follow them and when they land shoot them.

Offline Spyro

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Re: [Balancing] Elemental Town in Battlespace
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2009, 12:09:38 AM »
Hi there,

first of all... I'm happy with how the mod looks and feels in beta already. The job you guys have done is awesome... but I'd like to share some thoughts about the game balancing concerning air units and elementals in general.

I understand the concept and the need of diversity.  Having only mechs is maybe a bit boring... but the current state of affairs is not funny any more.

If you ride a big, heavy, slow mech, say.. an Awesome, and you suddenly attract the attention of a tiny litte creature named Elemental, you have exactly _zero_ chance of getting out of that situation alive.   An elemental runs and jumps faster than a torso can turn, and you cannot look straight down with a mech.  So... it takes some minutes and then you're down.  At least you're crippled, if noone is there to help you.   A single elemental can wipe out a whole artillery star.

Next point on my hate list... the air units. Like I said.. I understand that in a modern game there have to be some alternatives... but with the current mechanisms it is just way too hard to track and bring down an air fighter.  A player that is determined and good at flying can roam around the battlefield and kill one mech after another.

On the last map, where after 45 minutes I left with an even score, I was only killed _once_ by a mech.  The other 10 kills were all done by elementals and fighters.

Don't get me wrong.  I am very happy with this mod overall.  But a mech mod should concentrate on mech warfare. Mechs, after the story line we all hold so dear, are supposed to be the kings and rulers of the battlefield.

Up until this build, which I like to call "Elemental Town In Battlespace", that is not true.  Especially the elementals are way too powerful.

do my trick...if someone else is getting plugged by BA's...stand nearby throttle to 0 and start the shooting of fish in a barrel...wait till they expend their JJ's or are at the zenith of the jump and a PPC to the face will do the trick

Offline KorJax

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Re: [Balancing] Elemental Town in Battlespace
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2009, 12:42:40 AM »
My only problem with BA's is their illusion of really high health.  They tend to withstand dual medium laser blasts which to me seems like a bit much.  I figure a lot of this has to do with lag though making 90% of my shots missing such a small mobile target.

Offline Starkk

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Re: [Balancing] Elemental Town in Battlespace
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2009, 12:51:32 AM »
My only problem with BA's is their illusion of really high health.  They tend to withstand dual medium laser blasts which to me seems like a bit much.  I figure a lot of this has to do with lag though making 90% of my shots missing such a small mobile target.
You have to be able to keep the laser on them the entire time, or else you aren't doing full damage. Considering how fast they move, at close range lasers aren't really the answer. PPCs at their feet are.

Offline Karma

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Re: [Balancing] Elemental Town in Battlespace
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2009, 01:17:49 AM »
with the way lag works in crysis, any extremely fast unit will be basically invulnerable, on many servers in crysis wars, anyone with ping above 150ms is banned from flying because no matter how many missiles/AA rounds you shoot at them, they are never hit.

Offline direwolf

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Re: [Balancing] Elemental Town in Battlespace
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2009, 01:42:29 AM »
The BA Flamer needs to do more damage to other BA's.  I tried yesterday to use my BA Flamer to kill other BA's and they didn't even raise a sweat.

Offline KorJax

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Re: [Balancing] Elemental Town in Battlespace
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2009, 01:49:30 AM »
My only problem with BA's is their illusion of really high health.  They tend to withstand dual medium laser blasts which to me seems like a bit much.  I figure a lot of this has to do with lag though making 90% of my shots missing such a small mobile target.
You have to be able to keep the laser on them the entire time, or else you aren't doing full damage. Considering how fast they move, at close range lasers aren't really the answer. PPCs at their feet are.

That was just an example.  I was in an AC5 partisan and hit several consecutive shots on a BA.  The BA still lives and ends up killing me.  An AC5 should tear a BA in half, or at the most a couple should.

Maybe it should be: 10-15MG rounds = dead BA, 4-5 AC2's = Dead BA, 2-3 AC5's = Dead BA, 1 AC10 = Dead BA.

Offline gryeyes

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Re: [Balancing] Elemental Town in Battlespace
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2009, 02:29:12 AM »
For how much damage they can wreak they should be far more vulnerable to something. Flamers should kill them instantly any grazing fire by a M or above weapon should gib them. The lag is also largely a reason that a BA can be invincible. Ive been "damaged" by a volley of PCCs multiple times and not killed. That shouldn't happen.

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Re: [Balancing] Elemental Town in Battlespace
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2009, 02:41:26 AM »
Let me preface this with the note that I have been testing this game for some time now and have seen the BA's change a lot. Believe it or not they used to be a lot harder to kill, both due to armor as well as even more excessive mobility. Maybe I've had time to adapt or whatever, but I have been extremely efficient at killing BA (as long as I'm not also swarmed by mechs or vehicles) with beam lasers, MG's, flamers and the like. After an hour or so of play last night, there were a few persistent BA players who started running when they same me coming and would go looking for an easier target. Slow down or come to a complete stop, zoom in if need be, and use your mouse for fine control. Easy-peasey.

As for aeros, KingLeer is exactly right (as usual): while I successfully ranked up many many times (2x all the way to Khan) using nothing more than a Tbolt Hawkmoth (and only a few actual kills, mostly just a lot of damage), it doesn't take that much to take one down, even with rubber-banding due to lag. I believe you'll find that as soon as you either start pointing missiles at an aero, they'll hightail it before long, and if you're being bombed, get an aero yourself, or park a partisan strategically and take them down.

Seriously, one of my strategies for most games like this is that when I'm trying something that isn't working - and is fact only getting me killed - I instead try something else, usually involving direct vengeance on the last person(s) to do me in. If I'm being killed by BA, I go get something to kill BA with, or if there are no mechs and vehicles around - and I had enough money to buy a ManPack PPC and a BearAC - Ill actually shut down and get out of my mech, assuming it's taking damage and I can't run fast enough to get away, and then take the BA on. Aero's got you down? Get something to do something about it. This isn't CoD or Battlefield where all the weapons are more or less the same, with minor tweaks in accuracy/spread, rate of fire, etc., and everybody runs at the same speed and you can just pick the one thing you like best and expect to be able to do it efficiently, all the time. Similar to a real battlefield, the battles in this game are fluid, changing situations, and you will have to adjust your tactics and play-style to respond to it sometimes, at least if you want to be successful.

For example, I'd generally rather pilot a mech. Sometimes I like piloting VTOLs, and once in a great while I'll take a BA out on Extremity (since I can more or less fly across the map anyway), but sometimes, in order to be useful to my team (by killing the enemy and gaining cbills, of course), I have to change tactics and do something else. But then, I'm generally ok with doing whatever it is I have to do that lets me kill the enemy, and I have no difficulty finding fun in trying other stuff: even at this early stage in the mods development, there is plenty to try.



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