Author Topic: [Balancing] Elemental Town in Battlespace  (Read 9575 times)

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Offline Mugglez

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Re: [Balancing] Elemental Town in Battlespace
« Reply #330 on: January 07, 2010, 08:52:01 PM »
I, personally, don't think BAs are overpowered or need a nerf.  They're an annoyance.  A DESTRUCTIVE annoyance, if left unchecked.  I've changed my play style in dealing with them and have less of a problem now.  The LBX turns them into a fine red mist.  ;D

There are a lot of great ideas and suggestions on these 22 pages -- damn, that's a lot of reading -- but I think we should wait until the next fix is in to help with the lag, and maybe there will be less "Nerf the BA" talk.  BA aren't that hard to kill.  The current lag isn't helping the situation, though.

I agree with the Combined Arms style and try to stay near teammates if I'm in a Mech or in BA.  If you go out alone, you're asking for your Mech to be scrapped and shouldn't complain.  This is kind of like TF2, but with Mechs.  There are different vehicles and loadouts for a reason.  It's a team environment.

The Devs have done a great job on this mod, and I can't wait to see what else is in store!

@Defender:  I'm a supporter, too.  Sometimes, some things just need to be said.  You guys know what your vision for your mod is.

Offline ^sPikE-

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Re: [Balancing] Elemental Town in Battlespace
« Reply #331 on: January 07, 2010, 09:07:15 PM »
having an unfair advantage is an essential part of this game, and any other game like this.

What? o.o


every unit has a weakness to some other unit.

Dude, are you even paying attention?


this is not a game where every player has the same role. if you want this, play UT3 deathmatch.

Everything you say proves the points you are trying to argue against. You seem to be saying everyone should be BA inside Mechs, but then you turn around and say that this isn't a game where everyone has the same role? Which is it?

Should everyone be forced into the Arcadey, UT/Quake-like drudge of get in mech, fight other mech, inevitably jump out as BA because you lost your mech, then disable the person who beat you so that they have to eject, bringing every conflict down to BA Vs BA time after time and making BA not a choice, but a necessity?

OR... Should BA be a distinct, seperate role, as they are in -every other BTech game ever- which has it's own unique strengths and weaknesses? That people will actually have the opportunity to -choose- and, if they can handle it, -even use tactical thinking omigosh!-

hello, its not like we have only one mech available. you start off with BA and then choose a vehicle that has advantages over certain vehicles and disadvantages over others. hence different roles. however, if you chose badly according to the situation you get in, you have the option of ejecting. as opposed to buying an atlas just to come to the battlefield realising you have no adequate support and getting raped. if you get into this situation, you just lost an atlas but you dont have to repeat the whole procedure of buying and walking right away, you can do some small damage and help out the team. if you DO want to go buy again, dont eject! its not like the other team is getting tons of Cbills for a frag. what they get big cbills for is doing damage to vehicles. i agree that a BA thats piloting a mech shouldnt be able to carry as much as a regular one, maybe just 2 weapons instead of three, but its not really necessary imo.

you say you disable the person who beat you. you make it sound so easy.. as pointed many times, any mech that isnt a heavy can easily outrun BA if not too damaged. and heavys and assaults shouldnt be alone in any scenario. and even if a mech goes into battle with one BA, he has a big advantage over him.. it takes a lot of time for a BA to do any substantial damage to a mech (unless its still), while a mech needs one well aimed shot to get rid of the BA.

the way we are playing the beta now it is true that vehicles dont hold any substantial value to the players. its not a hard thing to do to leave a mech behind. but as soon as you play Test of Strenght, vehicles suddenly dont become as replacable and every player will think twice before leaving it behind.

BA is not a necessity. many players will prefer to die in their mechs and respawn than jump around like flea for the next 10minutes, mostly because most players just want to drive mechs and pwn, and they CHOOSE to do so. aside from the humiliation of being killed by someone and a +1 on the crysis frag counter, it makes no other difference.

i see why you would want to make this like "every other Btech game ever" but this is not a board game anymore or a videogame from the 90's. the fact is ejecting BA add a whole new dimension to gameplay, battle dynamics, and fun, while not being overpowered as some of you say. in fact the devs balanced the whole thing quite nicely for most people. its understandable that every BT fan who went to play this game says OMG this is not according to lore these BA are really a nuisance to me that i didnt forsee, the devs should remove their ejecting ability to make me happy, but the alternative is to adapt a BIT and have fun. too hard?

Offline Alexander

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Re: [Balancing] Elemental Town in Battlespace
« Reply #332 on: January 07, 2010, 09:43:15 PM »
Alright, I've tried to extract some sort of sensible response, but the core of your argument FOR BA being able to eject out of mechs, the argument that you seem to think simply defeats the many, many well thought out and reasoned arguments against it seems to be...

... The fact that it's useful.

And you seem to have no problems at all with MWLL being likened to a console game with a slightly similair name.
And there is apparently no difference between a "Fair" advantage and an "Unfair" advantage to you.
Plus you've... completely ignored most of the points raised in the other posts...

... you know what, nevermind. I can tell that this particular discussion isn't going anywhere productive.
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Offline Stahlseele

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Re: [Balancing] Elemental Town in Battlespace
« Reply #333 on: January 07, 2010, 09:57:56 PM »
I never manage to eject anyway . . suddenly it's going boom and i respawn asking myself what hit me O.o
'any kind of discussion of randomness ALWAYS WILL EQUATE to being able to critically hit a mech's reactor by firing a micro beam laser while facing 80 degrees to the side, shooting the ground, which would cause a random explosion which would randomly crit his entire team's reactors which would randomly cause the server itself to explode which would randomly generate a strange quark which would randomly hit the earth and randomly randomness randomfapp the shit fapp random!'
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Offline ^sPikE-

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Re: [Balancing] Elemental Town in Battlespace
« Reply #334 on: January 07, 2010, 10:02:34 PM »
my argument FOR BA being able to eject:

...the game would lose an important element that many players would miss, while what you are asking for can easily be achieved by adding a simple server command and making it a matter of choice.


the core of you argument AGAINST BA being able to eject seems to be..

...that you dont necessarily get +1 when destroying an enemy mech, and that you might get harrased a bit after you do. like you wouldnt get harrased otherwise.

you say many many reasonable arguments but all i see in this thread is people whining that the BAs are imbalanced when they eject even though they are clearly not. Its just that most returning players from previous MWs and BT veterans are not used to this, because boohoo, this is not how it is in the lore. screw logic, it needs to be a precise reenactment of the board game and anything else than this is "just like UT or Halo"?

while you fail to see that ejecting would have no point whatsoever if it werent for the BAs, and that if you play right you dont have a problem at all. i suggested a simple and effective solution that would be suitable for all of us, but obvisouly this thread isnt so much about solutions anymore.

50% like it, 50% dont, make a serverside option to turn it on/off and voila! problem solved! alltho from my POV there is no problem to begin with


Offline Alexander

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Re: [Balancing] Elemental Town in Battlespace
« Reply #335 on: January 07, 2010, 10:19:35 PM »
Post edited, removed most of it once I realised it was pointless.

while you fail to see that ejecting would have no point whatsoever if it werent for the BAs

You're either a troll, or so catastrophically stupid that talking to you is going to give me an aneurysm.

Either way, the majority at least understand the argument. Whether they agree or not is up to them. Explaining it to you is not necessary, so at this point it isn't worth the herculean effort that it would apparently require.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 10:27:39 PM by Alexander »
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Offline I_Like_Robots

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Re: [Balancing] Elemental Town in Battlespace
« Reply #336 on: January 07, 2010, 10:45:58 PM »
Post edited, removed most of it once I realised it was pointless.

while you fail to see that ejecting would have no point whatsoever if it werent for the BAs

You're either a troll, or so catastrophically stupid that talking to you is going to give me an aneurysm.

takes one to know one I spoze.

Offline Wreckus

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Re: [Balancing] Elemental Town in Battlespace
« Reply #337 on: January 07, 2010, 11:06:53 PM »
while you fail to see that ejecting would have no point whatsoever if it werent for the BAs, and that if you play right you dont have a problem at all.

In Mechwarrior, the pilots did not wear Battle Armor... they wore pretty normal cloths and just piloted the mech.  They would eject to save their lives, not to go on rampaging the battlefield in their second mech suit that they happened to be wearing.

Battle Armor is used for flexibility and mobility on the battlefield, not as a 'second life' for mech pilots.  You choose to drive a mech, or fly an aircraft or use Battle Armor for speed and flexibility.

The best way to balance the system would be to make it so that once you entered a Mech you lost your Battle Armor.  Ejecting would leave you as a civilian with a very weak weapon and maybe Jumpjets for gameplay purposes.  If your mech is destroyed then you get paid your salary (without dieing this means your cbills earned through damage would actually matter).  You can then make it back to base (assuming you survive the trip back) and buy a new mech/aircraft/Battlearmor.

The current system is just silly from both a lore perspective and a gameplay perspective.  Hell, why don't they make it so that when you eject from your mech you appear in a Plane or Tank?... That would be just as much "fun".


Offline Kodiak Ash

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Re: [Balancing] Elemental Town in Battlespace
« Reply #338 on: January 07, 2010, 11:32:02 PM »
My problem with BA's being able to eject has nothing to do with a +1.  IMO K:D ratio is mostly worthless since it just means whomever got the last shot in, not the guy who stripped the armor down to nothing or in the case of high deaths the person may very well be rocking BA full game in which you can and usually will die a lot.  However, this is, by nature, a competitive game.  We are playing this game to do battle or fight or whatever you want to call it against other individuals and want to win.  It really makes a great mech vs mech battle meaningless if someone can easily rob you of your victory by just popping out and escaping or worse turn the tables on you.  It's natural people aren't going to like that in such a competitive game.

My honest issue simply put is there's absolutely no difference from the guy who loads out his BA then loads out a mech/vehicle than someone who loads out a BA and heads out just as a BA.  If that is going to be changed to offer some added benefit to the person just as a BA, then great.  The fundamental issue there is choice.  One person goes out and chooses to load up a mech and go stomp around.  Another person chooses to run around as a BA.  Where's the advantage in the later choice?  I can just as easily tag in a Raven or other light mech.

The "everyone can do it, therefore it's balanced" response is ultimately flawed.  By that rationale we should all just run around in Huit B's which are good vs. BA and hell even Assault Mechs and just see who can gib each other the fastest.  It would be balanced, since everyone can and would be doing it.  However, just because it's completely balanced it doesn't make for fun or compelling game play.  The term balance does not equate to fairness.  The term balance means balancing the various advantages and disadvantages of our various choices in game.  As it currently stands, it is imbalanced.

Offline Draks

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Re: [Balancing] Elemental Town in Battlespace
« Reply #339 on: January 08, 2010, 01:11:09 AM »
Alexander I feel bad for you. I believe you make excellent points and your irritation is actually quite sensible considering the insensible replies you receive.  It's alright, I agree with you even if you are a douche.  ;)

Offline ^sPikE-

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Re: [Balancing] Elemental Town in Battlespace
« Reply #340 on: January 08, 2010, 01:26:34 AM »
As it currently stands, it is imbalanced.

i agree, it is imbalanced, it is a beta afterall. but i believe it is not the BA ejection thats making the imbalance.


It really makes a great mech vs mech battle meaningless if someone can easily rob you of your victory by just popping out and escaping or worse turn the tables on you.  It's natural people aren't going to like that in such a competitive game.

you say that its not about the +1 for you. than you should be satisfied that he conceded defeat and let you destroy his mech pilotless. THIS is victory. if its not about the frag, him escaping should please you as it shows his cowardice. if he turns the tables on you, well weve been over that.. kill him or if u cant run away.. OR if you want eject and go mano a mano. all of these tactics work for and for many other players as well.

on another note, who goes out on foot as a BA? except in extremity? isnt it better in solaris arena to take a puma or a harraser, and just leave it on the battlefield? taking a BA out on foot takes a LOT of time, and you get squished quick. they would have to nerf the BA quite a bit to make it viable as a standalone tactic, and then why not just make another mech? the way it is now the BA and vehicles complement each other and create an action packed, diverse, and dynamic combat enviroment.

Yes, in mechwarrior/BT pilots wore shirts. it would be impossible and stupid to make BAs pilot mechs in mechwarrior/BT. this is 2010. yes we can. and why should me make devs code in a BAless squishy pilot with quasi jumpjets shoes and a BBgun? because thats how they rolled 2 decades ago?

« Last Edit: January 08, 2010, 01:34:16 AM by ^sPikE- »

Offline Kodiak Ash

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Re: [Balancing] Elemental Town in Battlespace
« Reply #341 on: January 08, 2010, 02:54:13 AM »
I've actually stated very clearly and with actual reasons why it is in fact the BA ejection that does in fact create an imbalance with the current choices.

By your rationale someone should go pants on head retarded and declare themselves king of the Mechwarriors because they hit a target and that was a sweeping victory to them.  In every other game out there even remotely similar victory comes when you are left standing and when your opponent is not.  It is natural for people to expect this in a similar game and not a bouncing Matryoshka doll with a laser beam.

Actually movement as a BA is fairly fast and easy once you get the hang of it.  The biggest key really is the sprint key, in which you can sprint forever and significantly adds to maneuverability and performance.  Also depending on the terrain it's also easy to adjust your JJ usage to pretty much always be jetting around even off Extremity.  For example if running on flat terrain, jet to 60% or so jets and they should refill by the time you land (or a second later).  The only thing that can really seem to out run me are light mechs and few vehicles (IE: Harasser).  I'm sure in a flat out race on flat terrain I'd get beat, but on average I'm almost always one of the first people in the middle as just a BA.  This will become even less of an issue when you have claws and can easily hitch rides on your allies.

It was made plainly and abundantly clear by Defender that there will not be a pilot model.  I honestly don't care about it.  What I do care about is that there should be a difference between a person who takes a BA in a mech/veh/aero and a person who takes a BA and nothing else. 

Offline Mekabuser=12thVR=

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Re: [Balancing] Elemental Town in Battlespace
« Reply #342 on: January 08, 2010, 06:16:36 AM »
Seriously, this is still going on? At first, I read this thread and thought that Defender was being a dick. But really, he was right all along. l2p. If your team is fielding heavies and meds not suited to destroy BA's. Help em out. Bring out an asset that can deal with the problem, or gear out your BA and support them. Don't hop into an Atlas yourself and QQ about BA's.

Not sure if any of you know me, of have met me in game. But come at me in a BA. Last thing you'll do is come back here and whine about how a BA shouldn't pilot a mech, or how OP'd they are.
exactly.

Offline Felix

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Re: [Balancing] Elemental Town in Battlespace
« Reply #343 on: January 08, 2010, 06:18:43 AM »
lol its kind of pathetic how long this discussion has gone on for, everything to be said has been said and its just going to degenerate.

now all there is to do is sit back and laugh.

Edit: Saying its pathetic isnt directed at any one party just so everyone knows. :P
« Last Edit: January 08, 2010, 08:34:11 AM by Felix »

Offline Cujo

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Re: [Balancing] Elemental Town in Battlespace
« Reply #344 on: January 08, 2010, 07:42:24 AM »
In Mechwarrior, the pilots did not wear Battle Armor... they wore pretty normal cloths and just piloted the mech. 
They wore coolant vests over those normal pilot-ish clothes.