Some Feedback (incl Credit System idea)

[Inconsiderable]

Hello.
After playing MWLL whenever I had some time to spare, I'd like to give some feedback. First you did a really good job and the MWLL beta was more fun than most of todays retail games are. Some matches are really a blast while others suffer from the minor problems or because its a very simple beta missing certain things.

1) Balance
Beside certain vehicles its really well rounded:
* BAs are fun to play and can be dangerous (really dangerous in groups), yet extremely easy to kill if the lag isnt that bad and/or you are not alone
* Aircraft is kinda fapped. Every halfdecent pilot owns the score and only way to protect your team is dedicated anti air which is mediocre at best: I have to play on US servers (me EU) most of the time with ping 150-200+. It works fine against everything but air. Higher cost, more difficult controls and bigger hitbox (!) come to mind. Or at least fix missiles vs aircraft, as they can be dodged very easy. I am sure you are aware of this issue.
* Tanks are also okay, some of them abit too efficient. I dont think they should be as "dedicated" to a certain weapon like 4x X or 4x Y.
* Mechs are a blast. I tend to start with the PPC Raven, maybe 2x PPC Puma inbetween, before I roll with the Madcat C for the rest of the game. BA is annoying, Tanks are inferior, other Mechs make awesome fights and aerospace means you are fapped. Still awesome =)
It is kinda annoying having 100% health, getting near the front and simply exploding because of some artillery you never saw. Even happened to me using an Atlas multiple times.
Overall the variants are good and I hope you dont add the mechlab for quite some time, as it will kinda ruin the current gameplay which is very enjoyable.

2) Maps
Very cool. You guys have some very talented mappers. But the "game mode" kinda sucks. It usually leads to one team camping infront of the other teams base. A simple "Domination" objective would easy fix this. 2-4 locations which can be captured and constantly generate points (and maybe some credits) for the team holding them would be enough. Capture the Flag could also be a great experience; and both shouldnt be difficult. Hell, destroying the base would also work just fine.
I really hope some kind of objective makes it into the next version/patch.

3) Credit System
Thats a part I really dislike. You shouldnt get a solid credit base to buy the good stuff all the time. Personally I'd like to see a lower "secure" income for the ranks, but additional income based on your last performance. Means you do really good, you earned yourself a heavy mech. You perform poorly, you are back to a medium or light mech. This would also award going back for repairs. Because seriously... right now its a major waste of time. Once I went on a killing spree taking out half a dozen mechs on my own and then tried to save my hurt mech... took AGES to hobble back to base. Really AGES. And when I finally was back in base for repairs, it didnt even replace the missing parts so I had to buy a new one anyway. With my suggestion people would care more for their mechs and not walk straight into their doom -- or at least try to save them. Or maybe they wouldnt, but at least it would be an advantage doing so and not the opposite. That would also be an advantage for the light mechs. Got hit badly? Run back to base, repair and you are back in no time. Getting your assault mech back alive? No chance in hell they will let you slow big bastard escape.
The current system leads to tons of heavy mechs running around later, some smart pooling from the top player and you face a wall of several ATLAS pretty early. Mixing it up would really help the gameplay.
Sidenote: Also "pooling" is kinda broken. Few people pool credits in the beginning and you have an ATLAS hunting Ravens, racking up kills like no tomorrow. And no, BAs are not a valid counter as the people that did pool will protect him. That early you have no counter to such a powerhouse.

4) BA Stuff
BA could do with more upgrades. Like better jetpack (and start with a worse one), maybe more running speed, more armor and so on. People that like playing dedicated BA should be able to buy stuff. Maybe even make the basic BA kinda sucky and make people buy a real BA first. I really never bothered with Mechwarrior lore, but I am pretty sure that Pilots dont wear big bulky powered armour in their mechs.

Anyway, good job
- Incon

PS: You cannot register in this forum using Google Chrome. Bot protection kicks in somehow.

[Dgirth]

Well constructed post and the points you raised are valid.

I think what you have raised has already been discussed but the way you raised it can only highlight them for the Devs again.

[=]FC[=Striker]

I agree on the Aeros being out of control. The AA weapons that were intended to be effective are not, and an 18k Sulla can fly in and drop bombs on Heavies to instant kill a fresh 'Mech. There is an issue when you see an 18k cbill Sulla flying at you and your entire team focuses on the Aero flying in a straight line and is unable to kill it before it drops its payload and then loops back around in a predictable manner and still makes it out of the fight to get more ammo. This is largely a lag issue, but at the same time the bombs are way over-powered for the cost of the asset and the damage that is done. Even being able to carry only 2 bombs total does not balance out the damage of the single drop instant kill on a Heavy 'Mech.

Striker

[Inconsiderable]

I did put some more thought into the Credit System while playing today:

The problem with the current system is simple: You gain credits for dying.
This leads to many problems, suicide-pooling, people running in to die, BA perceived as too strong, and so on. You shouldnt be able to spawn an Assault Mech, run in, die, spawn a new one, run in, die. Also there shouldnt be a wall of 6 Atlas walking towards your base after 10 minutes.

My idea would be simple:
* Rank awards credits over time. Every X seconds you gain Y credits based on your current rank.
* Obviously you still gain credits for dealing damage, killing stuff, capturing objectives, etc
* You also gain bonus credits when promoted.
* Death reduces your current credits, either by Z% or by a fixed value.
* If death drops your credits below a certain value (based on your rank, like 3000+[1500*rank]), your credits are set to that value

This system offers many advantages:

* First one is that you dont need to highest rank to use the expensive stuff. Right now someone with a high rank will ride out in Assault Mechs all the time, while someone with a low rank will use medium mechs or tanks at best. This system allows both players to use the expensive vehicles, BUT the one with the high rank can use them more frequent. A low rank means you need a good streak or stay alive and save for a longer time to you can afford a big mech. It also means that high ranks cannot "just spawn" the big stuff whenever they want. They still need to work for their rides.

* More variation. Because you cannot just spawn the biggest possible mech, we will see the big stuff less frequent. People will ride out in assault mechs, yes. But they wont come back in one if they didnt kick ass with the first one. The average tonnage used goes down, which means the small mechs dont die instantly when they get in range, which means they become viable mechs again.

* Now that average tonnage is reduced... when the heavy weapons are spawned, they are real powerhouses. You dont spawn an Atlas and run into four other assault mechs on your way to the enemy base. Your enemies are basicly weaker than they are now.

* Survival matters. Death is no more "yay my mech is repaired again". Death means you gain nothing, but lose some of your credits. Now its a very bad idea to die. People will pull out earlier and try to repair (/ sell) their mech.

* Attacking people in your BA is now REALLY dangerous, because if you die... you lose credits. You just lost your mech, but still have a decent amount of credits to buy a new one. You can either try to get back to base and buy a new one... or fight the next best mech on your own (what we do right now) with the chance of losing not only your mech, but also your credits. It doesnt hurt pure BA players, because they dont need high credits to buy their PPC and some C8.

Hmmm..
- Incon

[Uranium - 235]

I did put some more thought into the Credit System while playing today:

The problem with the current system is simple: You gain credits for dying.
This leads to many problems, suicide-pooling, people running in to die, BA perceived as too strong, and so on. You shouldnt be able to spawn an Assault Mech, run in, die, spawn a new one, run in, die. Also there shouldnt be a wall of 6 Atlas walking towards your base after 10 minutes.

My idea would be simple:
* Rank awards credits over time. Every X seconds you gain Y credits based on your current rank.
* Obviously you still gain credits for dealing damage, killing stuff, capturing objectives, etc
* You also gain bonus credits when promoted.
* Death reduces your current credits, either by Z% or by a fixed value.
* If death drops your credits below a certain value (based on your rank, like 3000+[1500*rank]), your credits are set to that value

This system offers many advantages:

* First one is that you dont need to highest rank to use the expensive stuff. Right now someone with a high rank will ride out in Assault Mechs all the time, while someone with a low rank will use medium mechs or tanks at best. This system allows both players to use the expensive vehicles, BUT the one with the high rank can use them more frequent. A low rank means you need a good streak or stay alive and save for a longer time to you can afford a big mech. It also means that high ranks cannot "just spawn" the big stuff whenever they want. They still need to work for their rides.

* More variation. Because you cannot just spawn the biggest possible mech, we will see the big stuff less frequent. People will ride out in assault mechs, yes. But they wont come back in one if they didnt kick ass with the first one. The average tonnage used goes down, which means the small mechs dont die instantly when they get in range, which means they become viable mechs again.

* Now that average tonnage is reduced... when the heavy weapons are spawned, they are real powerhouses. You dont spawn an Atlas and run into four other assault mechs on your way to the enemy base. Your enemies are basicly weaker than they are now.

* Survival matters. Death is no more "yay my mech is repaired again". Death means you gain nothing, but lose some of your credits. Now its a very bad idea to die. People will pull out earlier and try to repair (/ sell) their mech.

* Attacking people in your BA is now REALLY dangerous, because if you die... you lose credits. You just lost your mech, but still have a decent amount of credits to buy a new one. You can either try to get back to base and buy a new one... or fight the next best mech on your own (what we do right now) with the chance of losing not only your mech, but also your credits. It doesnt hurt pure BA players, because they dont need high credits to buy their PPC and some C8.

Hmmm..
- Incon

Not having to worry too much about dying is one of the main reasons I boldly will push ahead and put pressure on the enemy. When you introduce penalties, people will resort to playing what lets them survive the longest, not what they find the most fun. In your example, you're punishing players who take short-range brawlers and reward everyone lining up with Gauss rifles and missile spamming.

[Skunker]

-Snip-

Not having to worry too much about dying is one of the main reasons I boldly will push ahead and put pressure on the enemy. When you introduce penalties, people will resort to playing what lets them survive the longest, not what they find the most fun. In your example, you're punishing players who take short-range brawlers and reward everyone lining up with Gauss rifles and missile spamming.

While I agree that taking away short-range play is no good, so too is making the game profitable for people who rush in and die. Preferably a happy middle ground where incentive to live spurs more balanced engagements could be arranged. Currently I find that it can get irritating when all people do is charge in and suicide rush, and it can also get irritating when playing on a ToS server and all everyone does is snipe with long ranged 'mechs to avoid death. There needs to be some kind of middle ground where if you stay alive you can get some rewards and also when you can cause damage and do the dirty work you get some rewards.

What this game really needs is an objective based style of play. ToA was supposed to be objective based, but it obviously couldn't be released in Beta 1, and I'm not sure if it will ever make a reappearance.

[Inconsiderable]

Not having to worry too much about dying is one of the main reasons I boldly will push ahead and put pressure on the enemy. When you introduce penalties, people will resort to playing what lets them survive the longest, not what they find the most fun. In your example, you're punishing players who take short-range brawlers and reward everyone lining up with Gauss rifles and missile spamming.

This is a valid point. Even thou I dont think "boldy pushing ahead" as in... run in, deal as much damage as possible, die anyway, respawn, do it again... is something very mechwarrior'ish. Id even say it should be discouraged to a certain degree. Mechwarrior is supposed to be tactical, not a deathmatch.

But it could also mean player will start teaming up and running around in groups more often instead of rushing in on their own. Not to mention that short ranged mechs easily get their money back once they are close to missile spammers. In the end this is about balance, the payoff of engaging as risky short range.
The next release will hopefully feature some kind of objective and then people cannot just "hang back" if they want to win.

But there are also easy fixes for the issue you described:
* Range multiplier: You get credits based on distance to target. Example: 0-300 = 1x, 301-1200 = 1x-0.5x (scales down), 1201+ = 0.25x
* Diminishing returns: The more credits you have, the less credits you gain. Example: [Credits gained] * x; x = 1 - [Current Credits / 100000]
Means with 100000 credits you your credit gain is *0, with 50.000 credits its *0.5, etc. The closer you get to the cap, the less you gain.
This way you can more easily afford light/medium mechs and also use them as fodder.
* Teamcredits: x% (lets say 50%) of the credits anyone gains is split among the team. Even if your job in a 4-man-team is soaking up damage and you do a wonderful job, you still get paid for it.
* Nerf that annoying missile spamming with that doesnt even require aiming. Srly.

[Uranium - 235]

Not having to worry too much about dying is one of the main reasons I boldly will push ahead and put pressure on the enemy. When you introduce penalties, people will resort to playing what lets them survive the longest, not what they find the most fun. In your example, you're punishing players who take short-range brawlers and reward everyone lining up with Gauss rifles and missile spamming.

This is a valid point. Even thou I dont think "boldy pushing ahead" as in... run in, deal as much damage as possible, die anyway, respawn, do it again... is something very mechwarrior'ish. Id even say it should be discouraged to a certain degree. Mechwarrior is supposed to be tactical, not a deathmatch.

If you want true tactical, play as a Battle Armor. A giant robotic war machine that weighs 80 tons and can only move at 50km/h can only be so 'tactical'. Many mechs are designed specifically for spearheading an assault (... assault... mechs...). Regardless, maybe you misunderstood. If you have penalties for dying, people are going to Hem and Haw at being the guy who pushes the attack. Right now I'm not terribly worried about being 'that guy'.

Not to mention that short ranged mechs easily get their money back once they are close to missile spammers.

If the short range mech isn't turned into a pile of slag via Gauss, LRM, Arrow IV, etc. People keep forgetting this part.

[=KH=Dimachaerus]

As usual, Uranium, your post is absolute drivel.

Mechs can be VERY tactical, use cover, use passive radar, use scouts in light fast mechs to find the enemy, use long ranged fire support to keep the enemy busy while the short range mechs move in, etc etc... Also, bear in mind not everyone is a skilless nub who has to pilot an assault mech to have any hope of getting a kill. Use that big slow lumbering assault mech to anchor your formations, use it to break enemy lines, use it to provide long ranged fire support. Yes, rushing in like you do, in a "giant robotic war machine that weighs 80 tons and can only move at 50km/h" is basic stupidity, and if I was on your team I'd personally LEG you to keep you from giving the enemy the points for your idiotic charge. An assault mech charging on it's own is effectively an act of treason against your teammates.

There -SHOULD- be a penalty for dying, it will make people actually stop and THINK instead of just "hurr! I gonna run at line of mechs and die nao! hurr hurr I r so skilled!". Anything that can be done to promote tactical and more strategic gameplay will be great.

This is the reason I rape face with a vulture prime, I use my head when I play, I use cover, I use passive radar, I watch enemy movements, and I try to work (when there is anything resembling cohesion) with my team. Try it, and I think you'll be surprised.

[Skunker]

Not everyone wants to creep around all day and stand 1000m apart behind a rock while launching arrow IV's at each other. If that's what you want, play TOS. I personally think a penalty for death would be fine, but it better not be extreme. There's no way that this game would be any fun if all that occurred were long ranged fights (sometimes that's still pretty much all that happens, a missile boat line backed by a couple of heavies and assaults that maul anything that gets caught in no-man's land) where nobody got in close or even in medium range.

[Manfromx]

How about "damage bonuses"

So if you do x amount of damage in x amount of time and you are in mech class "light" you get 10k (or whatever)

Obviously the bigger the mech you are in the harder it is to get that bonus.

Any bonus monies you received are still waiting for you upon death.


I don't think this idea works with the current system as well (since you already get such a big lump sum upon respawn). Though this idea might work well paired with another idea.

Oh and a bonus on promotion should be added right now . It's so weird to be like..... awesome when I die I'll be richly rewarded. I didn't know mechwarriors believed in such riches after death .

One last addition. Maybe even helping out the newbs could be programmed in. If you've died more than 6 times without doing much damage maybe you can start with 30k once instead of 20k (don't worry about it if they've been promoted once). It'll just give the newb a chance to try a different vehicle or mech.

[Rally]

This is the reason I rape face with a vulture prime, I use my head when I play, I use cover, I use passive radar, I watch enemy movements, and I try to work (when there is anything resembling cohesion) with my team. Try it, and I think you'll be surprised.

<3 Vulture Prime

PS: You don't really have to use passive radar mode, the Vulture has ECM on board!

[Stalker]

Anyone who has played MW4 respawn knows that short range attacks are basically suicidal no matter how they are carried out and as the player base develops you will see less and less of it to the point that it becomes quite a rarity.  The idea that there are any "tactics" at all in respawn games is rediculous.  You are actually penalised by the game type for successful maneuvers because an attack that eliminates some enemies means in a minute or two you will have those same enemies attacking your flank and you'll be caught in a crossfire and destroyed.

Unless you consider "taking one with me" at best to be success, respawn will develop into what it always does, long range combat from static positions.  There is simply no value from deviating from that as the risks always exceed the rewards, the occasional bit of luck not withstanding.

[Manfromx]

Anyone who has played MW4 respawn knows that short range attacks are basically suicidal no matter how they are carried out and as the player base develops you will see less and less of it to the point that it becomes quite a rarity.  The idea that there are any "tactics" at all in respawn games is rediculous.  You are actually penalised by the game type for successful maneuvers because an attack that eliminates some enemies means in a minute or two you will have those same enemies attacking your flank and you'll be caught in a crossfire and destroyed.

Unless you consider "taking one with me" at best to be success, respawn will develop into what it always does, long range combat from static positions.  There is simply no value from deviating from that as the risks always exceed the rewards, the occasional bit of luck not withstanding.

This is true if only one or two mechs are trying to break that mold.

If you manage to form a little 3 - 4 mech raiding party your success will improve quite a bit and your team can certainly gain a lot of ground thanks to it.

However like you say. It being a respawn game type that gain will soon be lost since the advancing team has farther to walk to get back to the ground they gained and the team that lost it now has the benefit of being close to home .

This game mode is fun but I'd like to see others for sure.

[Uranium - 235]

Hey by the way, am I the only one who's noticed an issue with the PPC Raven?

I was playing it on Marshes last night and it seemed like the PPC doesn't fire where the crosshair is pointed...