Author Topic: :( I tried. But hey, I'm not the only one you all should hate!  (Read 3113 times)

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Offline Uranium - 235

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:( I tried. But hey, I'm not the only one you all should hate!
« on: January 18, 2010, 11:03:12 PM »
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<U235> shockwave why are you playing that miserable game, and not mechwarrior
<Shockwave> Oh, is Living Legends any good?
<U235> it's phenomenal, one of the best mech games
<Shockwave> I heard bad things because of Elementals being, well, stupid
<U235> those peopel would be stupid
<Shockwave> Including apparently ejecting into Battle Armour? which sounds AMAZINGLY dumb
<U235> I've proposed my own personal fixes for that, dying should give you a stiff respawn delay
<Shockwave> You eject, you're useless, you just die. Maybe at best, it lowers your respawn timer. I like the fact they've gone with no-configuration
<U235> no mechlab?
<Shockwave> Yeah.
<U235> I said I don't want a mechlab and everyone flipped out
<Shockwave> I don't want one. Ever. The Mech Lab works in P&P BECAUSE it's P&P. When you're playing in an FPS environment, you can min-max
<U235> Yeah I mentioned that and everyone wigged the fapp out
<Shockwave> So, you're putting me off this game here U235. People on forums, especially cliquey ones for mods, tend to be fans of the developers, who think the same way.
<Shockwave> I'd ike BA, but it should be entirely seperate from mechs. That's why Mechs dominate the battlefield, they're just BETTER than the other alternatives
<U235> most are. most people aren't me :D
<Shockwave> The only ways a BA should ever win is either Ambush, or en masse.
<U235> BAs win vs. mechs because people are retarded. the only thing that a BA can outrun is an Atlas. But people get tunnel vision and go "I MUST KILL THIS GUY" and then chase a BA while getting raped in the butt by everone else
<Shockwave> I honestly, genuinely no longer have the motivation any more to wade through the average Internet gamer mentality to explain this to people. You should either be the Suit, or a Mech, but not both. See, there's another issue. FPS doesn't allow for the rules in the board game. The Clans in P&P get better technology, and better pilots, but they're woefully undertonnage in every fight.that evened out the Clans and the Inner Sphere. Meanwhile, FPS will just have (in no time, I guarantee) retards using Clan ER PPC in IS Mechs with Ferro Fibrous in no time
<U235> which is why I don't want a mechlab. I specifically used that as one of my arguments. why even haev IS mechs if you have a mechlab, IS mechs are always less efficient
<Shockwave> So, I don't think I'll bother.
<U235> because they'll have a mechlab eventually, and you can jump out of a mech in BA?

:( I still don't know if he bothered to try it. Seemed to write a free game off pretty early but his complaints with the game eerily mimic my own....

Offline =Outlaw=

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Re: :( I tried. But hey, I'm not the only one you all should hate!
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2010, 11:17:19 PM »
lol way to scare someone away from a game you think is phenomenal..unless you are just being sarcastic

A mechlab is only as retarded as you make it. You know how easy it is to limit clan tech on clan mechs? MW4 mods easily put this in place. Only way this could happen is if the devs let it happen.  You shouldn't worry about what the players will do with the mechlab but what a dev team does with it.

IS mechs don't seem that less efficient in the game right now, so I don't see how with a mechlab they will suddenly become even less efficient. Besides it doesn't matter, if IS mechs suck more they will cost less.

I really don't know what people are so afraid of with the mechlab. Is it simply boating?
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Offline Uranium - 235

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Re: :( I tried. But hey, I'm not the only one you all should hate!
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2010, 11:33:58 PM »
To be fair, the guy is a hardcore P&P BT nerd. I've pretty much talked about how badass the game is non-stop to everyone else since it's come out :/ Just that he jumped at both the BA ejection and Mechlab were NOT my ideas, shows that I'm not the only one who forsees problems.

On the other hand I got some Dutch guy to play it.

Offline (TLL)Highlander

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Re: :( I tried. But hey, I'm not the only one you all should hate!
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2010, 12:05:40 AM »
I don't see why everyone is scared of the mechlab either. Even if they do screw it up because for some reason they decide to stop doing things right then I'm sure pre-set varient servers will pop up and then we can just go back to how it is now. It seems like your friend is trying not to like it, considering one thing made him write off a free game like you said.
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Offline (TLL)Sky_walker

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Re: :( I tried. But hey, I'm not the only one you all should hate!
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2010, 12:08:24 AM »
and... why do we need a new topic for that anyway?
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Offline Bowrrl

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Re: :( I tried. But hey, I'm not the only one you all should hate!
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2010, 02:39:32 AM »
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<Shockwave> I don't want one. Ever. The Mech Lab works in P&P BECAUSE it's P&P. When you're playing in an FPS environment, you can min-max"

I loled at him implying you can't min-max in the P&P. Someones never played against a Pulse Laser Boat with a Targeting Computer and a Clan pilot.

Offline Dalmp

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Re: :( I tried. But hey, I'm not the only one you all should hate!
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2010, 05:02:08 AM »
I also LOLed at him saying mechlab comes from PnP.  That's not true --at all--.  I think the first instance of *easy* pre-battle weapon swapping was Crescent Hawks Inception, though I don't think it was called 'mechlab' at that point in time and I think you still had to walk around in circles to burn the time away.  MW2-mercs and Mech Commander popularized the term and made it the 'build your own mech' concept it is today.  The mechlab feature was added FOR video games to begin with. 

In PnP there was detailed sections of the rules involving weapon replacement and jury-rigging.  It took time, money, and involved some serious risks.  Prior to omni-tech it wasn't a good idea to reconfigure a mech unless you absolutely had to or unless you happened to have obscene amounts of C-bills and the best techs in the inner sphere to play with (ala solaris 7).  Battlefield swaps often ended in weapon jamming, or even explosions.  That's PnP - you didn't just shuffle weapons around at will.  Mechlab is a video game concept, since players generally don't like to wait in real time for technicians to do their work, don't want to spend all their money to play with different weapons, nor do they like entering a battle and blowing their own arm off the first time they fire.  Though tbh, I think I'd personally enjoy the latter lol. 

Granted, for quick matches, most players just built whatever they wanted for the fun of it.  But that wasn't so much by the rules, as in spite of them. 

I also LOL at him suggesting that Mechs should automatically dominate the battlefield.  That's a MW-kiddy's claim, not a PnP nerd's claim.  Mechs didn't always dominate in PnP.  Go read the very first BTech novel - Decision at Thunder Rift.  Grayson is killing mechs with 'jeeps' and sachel charges even before he gets his own mech.  But in spite of that mechs still have very specific advantages.  In PnP a tank could be just as tough, much cheaper, but seriously restricted in mobility and operating environment.  Few tanks were designed to operate in vacuum, or drive under water, for example.  In MWLL as currently implemented the weakness of vehicles isn't really highlighted, since there are no objectives to achieve.  If you had to take 4 points on a map, had to cross numerous terrain obstacles and didn't have all day to do it, I think you'd discover very quickly why the more mobile battlemechs are already superior as they are implemented *right now*. 

As for battlearmor, I find it ironic that while he (erroneously and backwards from the truth) claims that mechlab is pnp and not meant for Video games, he fails to understand that Battlearmor's strength is in itself a concession to the video game environment, instead of being bound to strict pnp rules.  If 5 BAs were equal to a mech (5 to a point, ala clan organization),  almost no one would play one, and we'd never see them (short of ejections).  When you see a BA, think of it as a team of 5.  It works out just fine, and tbh after the lag fix BA might just be too easy to kill for anyone who can aim worth a damn.  Although we sometimes meet a BA purist who makes us eat those words, it's not very often. 


Offline Albain

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Re: :( I tried. But hey, I'm not the only one you all should hate!
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2010, 05:28:47 AM »
Uranium your rants are well beyond tired and boring.  So we are supposed to care that some BT nerd is not even gonna try a FREE mod, because he heard something in beta is IMBA?

Retarded just like your posts, I see why you two are friends.
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Offline Rolke

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Re: :( I tried. But hey, I'm not the only one you all should hate!
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2010, 05:30:03 AM »
I have very little trouble killing BA unless I'm fighting 3 or more, and at that point I would have to be stupid to try and fight it out if I wasn't certain of my BA killing weaponry and my aiming skills, this is where you should take a tactical retreat or call in the reinforcements to your aid.

Offline Uranium - 235

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Re: :( I tried. But hey, I'm not the only one you all should hate!
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2010, 06:11:07 AM »
I also LOL at him suggesting that Mechs should automatically dominate the battlefield.  That's a MW-kiddy's claim, not a PnP nerd's claim.  Mechs didn't always dominate in PnP.  Go read the very first BTech novel - Decision at Thunder Rift.  Grayson is killing mechs with 'jeeps' and sachel charges even before he gets his own mech.
Didn't realize how canon people consider the novels. I've read a Star Wars book or two and... some of it gets so stupidly over-the-top it starts compromising the original material. When you have a guy that's written as a super badass roundhouse kicking Star Destroyers out of the sky... I wouldn't exactly use that as justification for what is and is not possible in the universe.

Offline Dalmp

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Re: :( I tried. But hey, I'm not the only one you all should hate!
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2010, 08:52:18 AM »
Didn't realize how canon people consider the novels. I've read a Star Wars book or two and... some of it gets so stupidly over-the-top it starts compromising the original material. When you have a guy that's written as a super badass roundhouse kicking Star Destroyers out of the sky... I wouldn't exactly use that as justification for what is and is not possible in the universe.
That's a very fair point, and believe me I understand and emphasize with that sentiment (it's made a mockery of SW canon).  Sometimes the book (particularly comic book 'canon' - ugh) turns into nothing more than a fan-wank, and a game of one-upsmanship on previous stories.  However, this particular book is different (as most early Btech novels were).  The early fiction and early rules were very much in sync with one another.  For example, DaTR brought the term 'combined arms' into the Btech universe to begin with, after which it became a staple in the sourcebooks.  But I won't belabor that point, it's not like anyone really needs to read the books to understand the rules. 

Regardless, the stats alone speak for themselves.  Compare the Demolisher to the Victor.  The demolisher is no chump and should probably win in a static head-on fight.  It has an advantage in firepower, and although it has slightly less armor, it has considerably more armor per location.  And for roughly 1/4 the cost.  The edge the Victor has over the Demolisher is mobility, flexibility, and the ability to operate effectively in diverse environments.  Not in firepower.  That's not to say that I'm obsessed with rules and stats when it comes to a video game.  Whatever works so long as it doesn't violate the spirit of the game, imo.  But the comment (by someone who claims to be a pnp nerd) that tanks should be weaker that mechs according to pnp is false.  That sentiment really stems from the MW video games, where you can end a tank with a single alpha strike. 

However, I'd tend to agree that vehicles are exceedingly useful in most of the TDM maps.  Hopefully when objective based maps arrive they will include plenty of rough-terrain shortcuts that are inhospitable to vehicles, bringing mechs more fully into their own.  Either way I'm enjoying the mod immensely, and how could I complain?  The balance isn't perfect ofc, but I'd have to say that for a first release MWLL has some of the best balance I've ever seen in a mod this complex.

Offline Sirius

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Re: :( I tried. But hey, I'm not the only one you all should hate!
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2010, 05:56:42 PM »
Uhm... tanks in table-top also have the slight issue that you can immobilize them by spitting at them (curiously, mechs don't suffer this disadvantage despite having more complicated movement systems) and are beyond weak to inferno ammunition.

If you ban infernos and don't need them to move, though, then yes - they can go toe-to-toe with mechs pretty easily. Especially the big guns (Alacorn comes to mind).

Offline Ghiest

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Re: :( I tried. But hey, I'm not the only one you all should hate!
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2010, 07:23:14 PM »
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A mechlab is only as retarded as you make it.

This is the internet you are talking about, it's got the highest percentage of retards.  Which is why I agree, mechlab is a bad idea ... missile boats will be worse and people will just min-max to what is the most powerful weapon at the time.

Offline Profane Arbiter

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Re: :( I tried. But hey, I'm not the only one you all should hate!
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2010, 07:46:28 PM »
There should be a mechlab of at least some sort. As it stands, my opinion is that alot of the mechs have garbage loadouts and I don't play them, or I'd like to tweak them more to my liking.

I see no reason not to allow limited modification as MW4 did. In the games prior to that you could stick any weapon on so long as you had the tonnage. Restricting misiles for missile slots, lasers for laser slots etc is perfectly fine IMO. Now we do have omnimechs of course, but these chassis would simply cost more than a non-omni of the same tonnage.

Other adjustments like shaving off some speed or armor to put on equipment like jumpjets is another type of modification I would like to see. It drives me nuts that the current Vulture doesn't have JJs!.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 08:02:57 PM by Storm_Crow »
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Offline Dagger6T6

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Re: :( I tried. But hey, I'm not the only one you all should hate!
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2010, 07:50:48 PM »
I can't wait till the final version of this game comes out... and hopefully I can find a NO RESPAWN, Clan vs IS server, with objectives (mechlab or no mechlab... I don't think it matters) then maybe all this bs my PPC is bigger than your PPC will cease