Author Topic: Lost Tech. The art of the 'machine' gun  (Read 1610 times)

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Offline (TLL)Siilk

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Re: Lost Tech. The art of the 'machine' gun
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2010, 04:10:43 PM »
Stop being off-topic, guys!   No,really.  ::)





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Offline Taemien

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Re: Lost Tech. The art of the 'machine' gun
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2010, 05:25:23 PM »
This has been discussed before.

Let me summarize: Every time you bring real-life into a discussion about science-fiction, god kills a catgirl.

Whats wrong with that? Someone should call Bob Barker at the very least.

Offline Dirg

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Re: Lost Tech. The art of the 'machine' gun
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2010, 05:38:41 PM »
Easy answer? When Battletech was created as a game none of the stuff we have now existed and they fudged some of what did to make it playable. Much of Battletechs "high tech" is silly to us now much like watching Cpt. Kirk use that crappy communicator on Star Trek on my Droid cellphone. Savy?

Offline The Saint

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Re: Lost Tech. The art of the 'machine' gun
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2010, 06:23:40 PM »
Actually, BT was created in 1984, so most of the "stuff we have now" did already exist. Composite armour dates back to the '70s, Abrams was already in service, GAU-8 was develped a decade earlier, etc etc.

And the communicators used in TOS might lack the fancy functions of today's cellphone, but in terms of raw performance, even TOS communicators blows anything we have today away. We never see a communicator run out of battery, they have range in the hundreds of kilometers without a network of transmission towers and service provider infrastructure, and they can interface with communication equipment on a ship all the way up in orbit.

[/nerd]

Honk if you like cookies (and think Oro should have a greater turret elevation)!

Offline Dirg

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Re: Lost Tech. The art of the 'machine' gun
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2010, 07:34:05 PM »
Actually, BT was created in 1984, so most of the "stuff we have now" did already exist. Composite armour dates back to the '70s, Abrams was already in service, GAU-8 was develped a decade earlier, etc etc.

And the communicators used in TOS might lack the fancy functions of today's cellphone, but in terms of raw performance, even TOS communicators blows anything we have today away. We never see a communicator run out of battery, they have range in the hundreds of kilometers without a network of transmission towers and service provider infrastructure, and they can interface with communication equipment on a ship all the way up in orbit.

[/nerd]
If we must do this
Composite armor actually dates back to the 50's in the sense we are discussing here however the ceramics based battletech is closer to far more recent techonology.

The GAU-8 would be an autocannon in the BT universe is possibly what inspired it since it was a role specific armor killing weapon.

As far as pickin at my communicator example, a single geosynchronous platform over a modern satellite capable phone can do anything that POS did and do it with realtime video. They charged, there are episodes where the "charge" was drained.

Don't let nerd pickiness overcome my point. 30 year old sci-fi is gonna have some oddness BT missiles are a glaring example of silliness, I can guide a tomahawk down an elevator shaft right now from half a planet away but a T-bolt can barely hit a target from 1000m. I ran an Anti-air missile system that went over mach 2.4 with a range of 15miles that was designed in the 50's but aero's out run LRM's at 200kph. Leave reality out of the game it wont work.

Offline Nebfer

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Re: Lost Tech. The art of the 'machine' gun
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2010, 10:39:28 PM »


Actually, Mech machine guns are analogous to .50cal machine guns. AC2 and AC5s would be classified as cannon weapons, hence autocannon. A machine gun stops being a machine gun after it reaches a certain size. Perhaps this is changed in THE FUTURE™, but all evidence points towards standard MGs as being simple .50 caliber machine guns.
Did you not read my post, B-tech has a Tank that uses a 20mm MACHINEGUN, and mentions that their are others with 30mm Machineguns. And I can point to more...

Quote from: By Temptation and by War Chapter 15
And then Evan stumbled backward as the Ranger’s machine guns opened up, slamming twenty-millimeter
caseless into the ConstructionMech’s bulky frame.

Quote from: By Temptation and by War Chapter 29
There, a cadet-crewed Schmitt probed forward, found a Triarii infantry position exposed
and hammered twenty-mil rounds into their position.
The Di Schmitt has two ballistic weapons a pair of Mydron Tornado RAC-5s and a pair of Scattergun Machineguns. The RAC-5s are described earlier in the book as being 50mm, leaving these 20mm weapons as the Machineguns.

Quote from: Patriots Stand Chapter 15
Some I can see. A whole lot I can’t. Gun trucks with machine
guns and grenade launchers... ...His gun truck bounced over brush and rocks as it shot forward, three more swinging out in rough
echelon as they zigged and zagged behind him. Gunners hung on to their 20mm Gatling guns attached to
the roll bars on the enemy side of the trucks.


Quote from:  TRO 3075 JES 1 Missile carrier entry
Armament:
3 Holly SRM 6
4 Holly SRM 4
2 22mm Gatling Guns
The TRO entry lists the 22mm Gatling Guns as Machineguns.

Quote from:  TRO 3026 Scorpion light tank entry
The 20mm Gatling gun is a time-proven weapon, giving the Scorpion good defensive firepower with plenty of punch.  Though some users of the tank have tried 30 mm machine guns, the Gatling gun's high rate of fire makes larger shells unnecessary.

Still think B-tech Machineguns are only 12.7mm Weapons?

======================================
Quote
If you think about it, a Mech is the ideal target for a tank. A mech is massive, slow (for anything beyond a light mech), and very easy to spot at long distances. All combat is first-shot, first-kill. There's no reason to believe this will change in the future. Modern armor is not simply steel, like HEAP rounds would be useful against. Modern armor relies on layers of sloped, alternating materials to form a super-dense wall of protection. All impacts will either be diverted, if an off-angle hit, or absorbed and defeated by the armor itself.
This may be true in real life...

Quote
Take my Abrams, for example. The newer version of Abrams armor is multi-tiered: Reactive armor that explodes on impact, thus redirecting the energy away from the armor. Beneath that, sloped Chobham armor, which consists of alternating layers of steel, ceramic, depleted uranium, and flexible meshes that fully absorb or redistribute impacts.
B-tech armor is a composite as well, Steel and CBN (with diamond reinforcement, on one or both layers, Titanium as structural, with a polymer sealant) in fact. Also the Internals is a Titanium honeycomb. Oh did I mention that the armor and internals are laced with sensors? And a single ton of armor can be replaced in as little as 2 to 4 hours.

And no Abrams have reactive armor unless it has under went the TUSK upgrade, and then they only cover the treads, not the turret, front or rear hull. And that theirs only like 500 Tusk kits available means only a small number have them.

Quote
Mech armor is not sloped. In fact, most potential impact zones on a mech are vertical. Vertical impact zones mean anti-armor rounds will have the maximum amount of area to impact, virtually guaranteeing penetration. If, as you say, the heaviest of mech armor consists of a single inch of ablative material (and I would assume a steel-like compound beneath that as skeletal support), there is nothing an Atlas could do to stop it from being punched clean through by a depleted uranium penetrator moving at a kilometer a second. Projectiles above AC range tend to be large and slow. Even Gauss slugs in CBT move no faster than a modern Sabot round, and they don't have nearly small enough of an impact zone to effectively penetrate armor.
No B-tech Rounds are much much faster than real life rounds, Gauss Slugs are hypersonic, as fast if not faster than real life rounds which top out at around 1,800m/s (just over the 1,710m/s for hypersonic). Not to mention the ranges in space are canonical and their is no difference between a Gauss Rifle in space and on on the ground. A Gauss Slug may not be ideal shaped but it's mass will spell doom for any real life tank, 225+ Mega joule impacts are not something real life tanks are built to handle (FYI thats equivalent to a 14 inch battleships shell), an Atlas can take three of these hits to it's center torso and not have any internal damage. And if you do not believe that B-tech Gauss Rifles are Hypersonic, Well I'm gonna have to post all 39 quotes that I have that say yes they are... (Heck I even found some infantry weapons that are hypersonic, including a 12.7mm rifle...)

Quote
HEAP rounds, like those used in BattleTech, are old technology, useful on large amounts of standard steel armor such as battleship plating, but not as effective as modern kinetic rounds like the APFSDS (aka Sabot).
Perhaps Sabot rounds are not as effective on B-tech armor as you would like? Though B-tech rounds are DU tipped, travel at hypervelocity (thats faster than 2km/s) speeds and often do seem to have a HE component.

Quote
BattleTech armor relies on ablative armor, which is not surprising given the use of directed energy weapons. Armor that flakes away under intense heat is ideal for dealing with heat-based energy weapons. Said armor is also supposed to "shatter" upon contact with kinetic impacts, which is all well and good, except that for purely ablative armor to be able to absorb multiple impacts, you must either: a) have a lot of it, and thus thick layers of ablative armor, which completely negates the idea of a single inch of ablative armor stopping multiple battleship-sized impacts, or b) have a way to very quickly replace the ablative armor, nearly instantaneously. Since there is no evidence to support "b", "a" is more realistic.
B-tech armor on mechs is at best an inch thick, and can stop a pair of Heavy Gauss Rifle slugs (on the CT) traveling at hypersonic speeds, thats at lest 380 Megajoules of Ke each and likely far higher. And some B-tech Tanks can take upwards of four of them to the front hull and live to tell the tale.

Quote
It doesn't matter how advanced your armor is, or how many snazzy futuristic words for steel or ablative armor you throw around. A dense, dedicated anti-armor projectile moving at a kilometer a second WILL defeat it.
What about the fact that B-tech rounds have a velocity more than twice that of your 1km/s rounds?

Not to mention B-tech has a weapons thats smiler to real life weapons, and is fluffed to have been used until the AC-5 was introduced in 2250, their not very good on Mech armor and are not very effective in space...

Offline MercenaryMuffin

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Re: Lost Tech. The art of the 'machine' gun
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2010, 02:18:39 AM »
I know, but it still bugs me  :P
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SCIENCE!

Offline Reiel

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Re: Lost Tech. The art of the 'machine' gun
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2010, 03:23:09 AM »
Nevermind. :D

Offline (TLL) Heretic

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Re: Lost Tech. The art of the 'machine' gun
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2010, 03:34:36 PM »


Actually, Mech machine guns are analogous to .50cal machine guns. AC2 and AC5s would be classified as cannon weapons, hence autocannon. A machine gun stops being a machine gun after it reaches a certain size. Perhaps this is changed in THE FUTURE™, but all evidence points towards standard MGs as being simple .50 caliber machine guns.
Did you not read my post, B-tech has a Tank that uses a 20mm MACHINEGUN, and mentions that their are others with 30mm Machineguns. And I can point to more...

Quote from: By Temptation and by War Chapter 15
And then Evan stumbled backward as the Ranger’s machine guns opened up, slamming twenty-millimeter
caseless into the ConstructionMech’s bulky frame.

Quote from: By Temptation and by War Chapter 29
There, a cadet-crewed Schmitt probed forward, found a Triarii infantry position exposed
and hammered twenty-mil rounds into their position.
The Di Schmitt has two ballistic weapons a pair of Mydron Tornado RAC-5s and a pair of Scattergun Machineguns. The RAC-5s are described earlier in the book as being 50mm, leaving these 20mm weapons as the Machineguns.

Quote from: Patriots Stand Chapter 15
Some I can see. A whole lot I can’t. Gun trucks with machine
guns and grenade launchers... ...His gun truck bounced over brush and rocks as it shot forward, three more swinging out in rough
echelon as they zigged and zagged behind him. Gunners hung on to their 20mm Gatling guns attached to
the roll bars on the enemy side of the trucks.


Quote from:  TRO 3075 JES 1 Missile carrier entry
Armament:
3 Holly SRM 6
4 Holly SRM 4
2 22mm Gatling Guns
The TRO entry lists the 22mm Gatling Guns as Machineguns.

Quote from:  TRO 3026 Scorpion light tank entry
The 20mm Gatling gun is a time-proven weapon, giving the Scorpion good defensive firepower with plenty of punch.  Though some users of the tank have tried 30 mm machine guns, the Gatling gun's high rate of fire makes larger shells unnecessary.

Still think B-tech Machineguns are only 12.7mm Weapons?

======================================
Quote
If you think about it, a Mech is the ideal target for a tank. A mech is massive, slow (for anything beyond a light mech), and very easy to spot at long distances. All combat is first-shot, first-kill. There's no reason to believe this will change in the future. Modern armor is not simply steel, like HEAP rounds would be useful against. Modern armor relies on layers of sloped, alternating materials to form a super-dense wall of protection. All impacts will either be diverted, if an off-angle hit, or absorbed and defeated by the armor itself.
This may be true in real life...

Quote
Take my Abrams, for example. The newer version of Abrams armor is multi-tiered: Reactive armor that explodes on impact, thus redirecting the energy away from the armor. Beneath that, sloped Chobham armor, which consists of alternating layers of steel, ceramic, depleted uranium, and flexible meshes that fully absorb or redistribute impacts.
B-tech armor is a composite as well, Steel and CBN (with diamond reinforcement, on one or both layers, Titanium as structural, with a polymer sealant) in fact. Also the Internals is a Titanium honeycomb. Oh did I mention that the armor and internals are laced with sensors? And a single ton of armor can be replaced in as little as 2 to 4 hours.

And no Abrams have reactive armor unless it has under went the TUSK upgrade, and then they only cover the treads, not the turret, front or rear hull. And that theirs only like 500 Tusk kits available means only a small number have them.

Quote
Mech armor is not sloped. In fact, most potential impact zones on a mech are vertical. Vertical impact zones mean anti-armor rounds will have the maximum amount of area to impact, virtually guaranteeing penetration. If, as you say, the heaviest of mech armor consists of a single inch of ablative material (and I would assume a steel-like compound beneath that as skeletal support), there is nothing an Atlas could do to stop it from being punched clean through by a depleted uranium penetrator moving at a kilometer a second. Projectiles above AC range tend to be large and slow. Even Gauss slugs in CBT move no faster than a modern Sabot round, and they don't have nearly small enough of an impact zone to effectively penetrate armor.
No B-tech Rounds are much much faster than real life rounds, Gauss Slugs are hypersonic, as fast if not faster than real life rounds which top out at around 1,800m/s (just over the 1,710m/s for hypersonic). Not to mention the ranges in space are canonical and their is no difference between a Gauss Rifle in space and on on the ground. A Gauss Slug may not be ideal shaped but it's mass will spell doom for any real life tank, 225+ Mega joule impacts are not something real life tanks are built to handle (FYI thats equivalent to a 14 inch battleships shell), an Atlas can take three of these hits to it's center torso and not have any internal damage. And if you do not believe that B-tech Gauss Rifles are Hypersonic, Well I'm gonna have to post all 39 quotes that I have that say yes they are... (Heck I even found some infantry weapons that are hypersonic, including a 12.7mm rifle...)

Quote
HEAP rounds, like those used in BattleTech, are old technology, useful on large amounts of standard steel armor such as battleship plating, but not as effective as modern kinetic rounds like the APFSDS (aka Sabot).
Perhaps Sabot rounds are not as effective on B-tech armor as you would like? Though B-tech rounds are DU tipped, travel at hypervelocity (thats faster than 2km/s) speeds and often do seem to have a HE component.

Quote
BattleTech armor relies on ablative armor, which is not surprising given the use of directed energy weapons. Armor that flakes away under intense heat is ideal for dealing with heat-based energy weapons. Said armor is also supposed to "shatter" upon contact with kinetic impacts, which is all well and good, except that for purely ablative armor to be able to absorb multiple impacts, you must either: a) have a lot of it, and thus thick layers of ablative armor, which completely negates the idea of a single inch of ablative armor stopping multiple battleship-sized impacts, or b) have a way to very quickly replace the ablative armor, nearly instantaneously. Since there is no evidence to support "b", "a" is more realistic.
B-tech armor on mechs is at best an inch thick, and can stop a pair of Heavy Gauss Rifle slugs (on the CT) traveling at hypersonic speeds, thats at lest 380 Megajoules of Ke each and likely far higher. And some B-tech Tanks can take upwards of four of them to the front hull and live to tell the tale.

Quote
It doesn't matter how advanced your armor is, or how many snazzy futuristic words for steel or ablative armor you throw around. A dense, dedicated anti-armor projectile moving at a kilometer a second WILL defeat it.
What about the fact that B-tech rounds have a velocity more than twice that of your 1km/s rounds?

Not to mention B-tech has a weapons thats smiler to real life weapons, and is fluffed to have been used until the AC-5 was introduced in 2250, their not very good on Mech armor and are not very effective in space...

QFT. +1.

I often wonder why folks who go on and on about the BTUs lack of realism (without taking the time to read things from the BTU), and harp on and on about how superior todays technology is (becasue they don't really know what CBT technology is, or how it works) post in threads like this.

Just read a BTU based book or two....it makes more sense than Star Trek ever does (Matter transporters, jeez that's funny.....or a Federation of Worlds led by a peaceful Human race without money or privilege? High-larious stuff right there).  It's more detailed than the Traveler universe, more believable than any Sci-Fi fantasy  (like 40k or even Farscape) and better than even the best of modern day sci-fi such as V2010(why wouldn't the V just take over and eat us all and drain the water from Earth with impunity?) or even my beloved Firefly (Horses beating hovercraft, I don't think so, primitive in space does not mean horses etc.).
.


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Offline Digital Communist

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Re: Lost Tech. The art of the 'machine' gun
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2010, 06:27:00 PM »

QFT. +1.

I often wonder why folks who go on and on about the BTUs lack of realism (without taking the time to read things from the BTU), and harp on and on about how superior todays technology is (becasue they don't really know what CBT technology is, or how it works) post in threads like this.

Just read a BTU based book or two....it makes more sense than Star Trek ever does (Matter transporters, jeez that's funny.....or a Federation of Worlds led by a peaceful Human race without money or privilege? High-larious stuff right there).  It's more detailed than the Traveler universe, more believable than any Sci-Fi fantasy  (like 40k or even Farscape) and better than even the best of modern day sci-fi such as V2010(why wouldn't the V just take over and eat us all and drain the water from Earth with impunity?) or even my beloved Firefly (Horses beating hovercraft, I don't think so, primitive in space does not mean horses etc.).
.

Hey, I read Legend of the Jade Phoenix and the Blood of Kerensky trilogies. I'm not going to get into a nerd-off with you, but Jumpships aren't realistic. At all.

Offline ~SJ~ Atlessa

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Re: Lost Tech. The art of the 'machine' gun
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2010, 06:31:31 PM »

QFT. +1.

I often wonder why folks who go on and on about the BTUs lack of realism (without taking the time to read things from the BTU), and harp on and on about how superior todays technology is (becasue they don't really know what CBT technology is, or how it works) post in threads like this.

Just read a BTU based book or two....it makes more sense than Star Trek ever does (Matter transporters, jeez that's funny.....or a Federation of Worlds led by a peaceful Human race without money or privilege? High-larious stuff right there).  It's more detailed than the Traveler universe, more believable than any Sci-Fi fantasy  (like 40k or even Farscape) and better than even the best of modern day sci-fi such as V2010(why wouldn't the V just take over and eat us all and drain the water from Earth with impunity?) or even my beloved Firefly (Horses beating hovercraft, I don't think so, primitive in space does not mean horses etc.).
.

Hey, I read Legend of the Jade Phoenix and the Blood of Kerensky trilogies. I'm not going to get into a nerd-off with you, but Jumpships aren't realistic. At all.


The way they're depicted in Battletech they at least sound PLAUSIBLE, unlike some other FTL drives in other Series...

Offline =KoS= Saber15

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Re: Lost Tech. The art of the 'machine' gun
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2010, 05:39:50 AM »

Hey, I read Legend of the Jade Phoenix and the Blood of Kerensky trilogies. I'm not going to get into a nerd-off with you, but Jumpships aren't realistic. At all.
It was either that, Star-trek style warpdrives, Stargate / X3 style stargates/jumpgates, STL generation ships, or STL sleeper ships (ala Revelation Space or A Deepness in the Sky).
First one is even more ridiculous than the Kearny-Fuchida Drive, second requires either ancient aliens or STL ships pulling the gates/building them at the destination, third and fourth are very realistic but don't allow for much in the way of interstellar empires or travel.

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Offline (TLL) Heretic

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Re: Lost Tech. The art of the 'machine' gun
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2010, 06:13:25 PM »
Hehe, and remember Star Gates are only believable because Master Of Orion burnt out the parts of our brains that might think otherwise.

Ahhh Commie, why no nerd-off? They're fun.... I'll take your Star Gate and raise you one HPG transmitter ;)


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Quid enim saluis infamia nummis

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