VTOLs and ASF balance issues

[(TLL) Heretic]

Right now every Hawkmoth (the heaviest of the 2 Attack VTOLs planned for MWLL) is 14.5K.  For that you can get a variant with 1 TBolt, LRMs and the wonderful lag shield and high hover to boot!  It's natural Nemesis, should be the Partisan Prime at 20K c-bills, and, head to head the Parti can kill a VTOL in around 3-4 seconds of sustained accurate fire, once that VTOL enters effective 800m range.

However, the VTOL can hover out of radar range and dive to 1000m to unleash its TBolt and LRMs, an accurate Attack with these weapons will kill the Partisan in one salvo if the pilot is good without the Partisan AA pilot getting to return any fire, or even know the VTOL is there.  And despite the arguments that the Hawkmoth has "Paper-thin-armour" the fact is that is untrue, I've tested it's armour against all manner of weapons and it's comparable to that of a Raven or Owens IMHO.

Even for a novice VTOL pilot this tactic is easy to rinse and repeat as the TBolt only costs 200 C-Bills and the LRMs can easily rack up that much in one salvo (and the pilot should have plenty of spare cash anyway, given that the vehicle costs so little).  Right now there's only 2 methods of countering this sort of tactic, 1: have 2 Partisan Primes for every VTOL, or 2: forget AA tank work altogether and have a Sulla pilot dedicated to anti-ASF work (not my ideal solution as I love anti aircraft work in a tank and want to see it effective in the game).

When we look at the CBT values of these vehicles we see that this holds true somewhat, the Hawkmoth is almost double the value of the Partisan, yet in MWLL it costs only 2/3 the price.  May I suggest that the VTOL is underpriced and it's true cost should be somewhere in the region of 40-45K (which balances it quite well against the AA Huit, which is better at killing it).

Of course this implies that the Sulla and Shiva be moved up in value also, and TBH I think this should happen also, as FBombs and TBolts, high speed and lag shields make these targets very underpriced on the MWLL Battlefield.  I understand the Devs desire to see folks being given the option of getting in a aircraft right from the start, but I think this is a key balance issue at the moment.

As it stands AA tank work is a waste of c-billls as the guns are nerfed against all but light 'mechs now and the ASF are so cheap, so it's hardly surprising that we see so many LRM Partisans out there, if your a tanker it's either that or the Harasser if you want to make money and rank from the start, if the LB-5X Partisan was available for 20K we'd see those employed a LOT more, but ATM if you've got the money for something like that then you've already moved on to an Oro, Demolisher or Huit and so we rarely see the LB-5X Partisan in the game. 

[Krippakrull]

I'm 95% sure the effective range of the Partisan Prime is significantly more than the indicated 800m. I know for a fact I see the telltale small smoke effects of hits at ranges in excess of 1000m when shooting at air targets, and I'm almost positive I've made kills at that range also. Anyway, another tip if you're going AC AA is to mostly run passive and use old Eyeball Mk1 for target aquisition. Also, try being mobile so the enemies have a harder time pinpointing your location between kills. Sure you'll get tbolted to hell once in a while but I have little problems with the Partisan against air until the enemies start fielding higher tiered aeros, lagshield nonwithstanding (use chainfire to keep a constant stream of bullets at your targets). That's when the huit comes into the picture though...

[Askis]

I'm 95% sure the effective range of the Partisan Prime is significantly more than the indicated 800m. I know for a fact I see the telltale small smoke effects of hits at ranges in excess of 1000m when shooting at air targets, and I'm almost positive I've made kills at that range also.

Yes, AC bullets don't just magically disappear at their max distance, but they do less damage than they usually would, which makes you use up more ammo, which you can go through quite fast as AA and since the Prime costs 20k, unless someone else gives you some money for ammo, you're leaving base without reloads...

[KingLeerUK]

The Partisan Prime can reach out and touch aerospace at 1200m+

Depending on the model, a Partisan can have both GECM and BHP, making it an opponent that you can't see, but can see you, from quite a ways away.

As far as VTOL pilots hanging around outside the 1000m range, yes, it's how they survive.  They have paper thin armour.  If you think that a VTOL pilot becomes 100% effective when they edge inside the 999m envelope, that is not the case.  With the exception of the LtGauss model, none of the Hawkmoths have enhanced optics, so you will find that a pilot will need to come closer to get the lock for their NARC beacon.

And finally, unless you were already damaged, a single T-Bolt will not destroy a Partisan; that is a fanciful exaggeration.  A quick test in Sandbox shows that a T-Bolt stuck right in the back armour of a Partisan only takes it to 50%, and that would be a worst case scenario.  Consider that the Hawktmoth pilot now has to go back to base to rearm AND that he has no defenses against enemy aerospace and I would say that it's pretty balanced. 

As with all things, using the AA tanks is all about getting to know them well.  Last night I downed a Hawkmoth that was hovering over me on Extremity in about 30 seconds with a Partisan Prime, and he was outside of 1000m.  Just ask Aurelius.

[Bowrrl]

Also the Sulla Prime.

When you absolutely, positively need to hit the enemy Air-to-Ground aircraft so hard the factory they were built in feels it, accept no substitute.

[(TLL) Heretic]

The Partisan Prime can reach out and touch aerospace at 1200m+

Depending on the model, a Partisan can have both GECM and BHP, making it an opponent that you can't see, but can see you, from quite a ways away.

As far as VTOL pilots hanging around outside the 1000m range, yes, it's how they survive.  They have paper thin armour.  If you think that a VTOL pilot becomes 100% effective when they edge inside the 999m envelope, that is not the case.  With the exception of the LtGauss model, none of the Hawkmoths have enhanced optics, so you will find that a pilot will need to come closer to get the lock for their NARC beacon.

And finally, unless you were already damaged, a single T-Bolt will not destroy a Partisan; that is a fanciful exaggeration.  A quick test in Sandbox shows that a T-Bolt stuck right in the back armour of a Partisan only takes it to 50%, and that would be a worst case scenario.  Consider that the Hawktmoth pilot now has to go back to base to rearm AND that he has no defenses against enemy aerospace and I would say that it's pretty balanced. 

As with all things, using the AA tanks is all about getting to know them well.  Last night I downed a Hawkmoth that was hovering over me on Extremity in about 30 seconds with a Partisan Prime, and he was outside of 1000m.  Just ask Aurelius.

But your supporting my main point right there.....30 seconds of sustained AA fire to down a Hawkmoth, does that sound paper thin armour to you?  Much better to spend the money on a cheap 18K Sulla A than a Partisan prime, you've much more chance of surviving and making money, plus if you get toasted up you've speed to get away and money for repairs. The Partisan Prime as an AA tank is either overpriced or the Aero is, it's not very balanced.

And after 30 seconds of fire with the Partisan (equating to about 3 or 4 seconds of rounds that hit) your thinking about RTB to reload those guns, and that takes much longer than the Aero does to achieve the same thing.  And a VTOL should be NoE to avoid taking hits, not 1000m in the air (how many combat Helicopters use the 1000m tactic? None, that's how many, an old Shilka will shred an Apache at 1000m in about 2-3 seconds, and that's with rounds spraying everywhere, so you've got the low and the dead with VTOL pilots in RL).

Hit that TBolt on the turret (easier to do than the rear armour in a VTOL), and follow up with the LRMs and tell me how long the Partisan lasts?  Hit the VTOL with all you got and he can limp home faster than you, reload and finish you off, plus in the exchange the Partisan pilot gets maybe a 1000 c-bills for all his efforts (minus the kill), barely enough to reload and repair, the VTOL pilot makes money much faster with the big old TBolt doing massive damage.  I've downed plenty of fast movers and laggy VTOLs with the Partisan Prime, but TBH in the same time I could have gained 3 times the money using the LRM Partisan, and folks then bitch about LRM Boats, but it's hard economic reality in the game at the moment.

It's not very combined arms when the only effective solution to a cheap starting unit is a tank like the huit, or another Air unit.

[Cujo]

Kingleer's probably got more hours in the Hawkmoth than you guys have in the game, so I take whatever he says for VTOLs to be an expert opinion.

[Arghy]

I hate everything that flys as it ruins the game.

I've killed helis and aeros with mechs and tanks before but they take way to much fapping damage before they die, sullas have recently been toned down and fear ground fire but VTOL's are beasts that are extremely bothersome to shoot down. They can make it a living hell to try and kill them so even if your dedicated AA you'll spend the entire match playing whack a mole with just a single VTOL--thats not fun and the VTOL can still shoot LRM's at narced targets while avoiding the AA tank. I'm all for drastically reducing armor on everything that flys to the sullas level, 3 PPC's mean your dead not just half armor. Aeros/VTOL's should rely on mobility and brains to survive in the air, if they get bracketed by ground fire they should bugger off or die fast.

[SquareSphere }12thVR{]

I don't know what servers everyone plays on, but the ones I'm on rip apart all but the most skilled VTOL/ASF pilots.  As I've seen it, when Hawkmoths are up, Sulla move to intercept, while Partisan Prime move to support the HMs against the Sullas.  All while mechs are trying to control/penetrates flanks to take out artillery/AA units.

And all this is happening at the early game.  It's a definite change for most MW vets to handle non fluff air units.  I will say that the one small tweak i would suggest would be to drop the AC5 Partisan to around 19k just so these tanks can be better dedicated AA with some ammo reloads.

[Temphage]

I spent last night whoring it up in aircraft on the Legion of Sparta server. Never once did I feel like I was ever in any danger. My Shiva got close to being shot down. Not ONCE did my LRM Hawkmoth ever end up in any danger. I ended the game on Extremity in the exact same VTOL I started the game with, with 16 kills and 0 deaths, as the second highest-scorer on the server.

1) They don't have 'paper-thin' armor, I don't know where you're getting this. It takes MANY passes with a Sulla Prime to bring one down. With some 'advanced' maneuvering and passive sensors (basically just fly like you're drunk) they'll eventually give up or lose you. I did manage to down an enemy Hawkmoth with my LRMs, though it did take three shots to do it.
2) Lag shield + ultra maneuverability. Aircraft can take 15G turns like it's nothing, which doesn't help. The fact is, 2-3 seconds of concentrated AC fire on an unmoving Hawkmoth located 5m away might tear it up, but at 600-1000m, you're only going to land a small fraction of that fire, giving them plenty of time to lock onto you, throw some missiles their way, and lazily float home.

Every time I get in a VTOL I feel like Zeus floating around in the heavens throwing lightning bolts and whomever displeases me. There's literally no skill involved in this at all, no sense of danger, and I never feel like I'm even part of the game. I just vacuum up points for doing nothing.

Kingleer's probably got more hours in the Hawkmoth than you guys have in the game, so I take whatever he says for VTOLs to be an expert opinion.

The same way a guy who really loves Rogues in World of Warcraft probably isn't the guy to go to for a neutral opinion on them...

Flying aircraft in this game doesn't have the same sense of participation mechs or vehicles do. It's easy as you're rarely in danger, your weapons require next to no skill to use, and they all do hideous amounts of damage. Even if you do get shot down it's not really a big deal - they're cheap, fast, and you're back in the fight in no-time. When I get killed in my Mk2, it's a bummer because I have to dedicate 3 minutes to lumbering across the battlefield (if I can even afford another one). When I'm in my aircraft and someone DOES start harassing me, I just lazily drift somewhere behind a hill - or maybe just go bug out and let the base turrets handle them - with a 1km range it's pretty easy to avoid conflict. When I'm in a mech and I find myself in trouble, I have to fight tooth and nail with everything I have and there's an awesome feeling when you crawl out of the fray intact.

The only way it's possible to really shut down even just one or two aircraft is to erect a disproportional defense against them. It's downright bad design to require an uneven ratio of players as a 'counter' to something (meaning it takes 2 players to counter 1 enemy, or worse).

[=KH=Dimachaerus]

I spent last night whoring it up in aircraft on the Legion of Sparta server. Never once did I feel like I was ever in any danger. My Shiva got close to being shot down. Not ONCE did my LRM Hawkmoth ever end up in any danger. I ended the game on Extremity in the exact same VTOL I started the game with, with 16 kills and 0 deaths, as the second highest-scorer on the server.

1) They don't have 'paper-thin' armor, I don't know where you're getting this. It takes MANY passes with a Sulla Prime to bring one down. With some 'advanced' maneuvering and passive sensors (basically just fly like you're drunk) they'll eventually give up or lose you. I did manage to down an enemy Hawkmoth with my LRMs, though it did take three shots to do it.
2) Lag shield + ultra maneuverability. Aircraft can take 15G turns like it's nothing, which doesn't help. The fact is, 2-3 seconds of concentrated AC fire on an unmoving Hawkmoth located 5m away might tear it up, but at 600-1000m, you're only going to land a small fraction of that fire, giving them plenty of time to lock onto you, throw some missiles their way, and lazily float home.

Every time I get in a VTOL I feel like Zeus floating around in the heavens throwing lightning bolts and whomever displeases me. There's literally no skill involved in this at all, no sense of danger, and I never feel like I'm even part of the game. I just vacuum up points for doing nothing.

Kingleer's probably got more hours in the Hawkmoth than you guys have in the game, so I take whatever he says for VTOLs to be an expert opinion.

The same way a guy who really loves Rogues in World of Warcraft probably isn't the guy to go to for a neutral opinion on them...

Flying aircraft in this game doesn't have the same sense of participation mechs or vehicles do. It's easy as you're rarely in danger, your weapons require next to no skill to use, and they all do hideous amounts of damage. Even if you do get shot down it's not really a big deal - they're cheap, fast, and you're back in the fight in no-time. When I get killed in my Mk2, it's a bummer because I have to dedicate 3 minutes to lumbering across the battlefield (if I can even afford another one). When I'm in my aircraft and someone DOES start harassing me, I just lazily drift somewhere behind a hill - or maybe just go bug out and let the base turrets handle them - with a 1km range it's pretty easy to avoid conflict. When I'm in a mech and I find myself in trouble, I have to fight tooth and nail with everything I have and there's an awesome feeling when you crawl out of the fray intact.

The only way it's possible to really shut down even just one or two aircraft is to erect a disproportional defense against them. It's downright bad design to require an uneven ratio of players as a 'counter' to something (meaning it takes 2 players to counter 1 enemy, or worse).

All this can be summed up by one single sentence.

You were facing a team of incompetent fools.

Come fly your tasty little pinata on a server with me in it, I'll show you exactly how WRONG you are.  Any semi-competent aerospace pilot can ACE the average hawkmoth, and someone who knows what they're doing with a sulla? They're gonna make you cry tears of blood.

[Temphage]

Did I mention I have practically ZERO flight time in either aircraft? A team of incompetent fools couldn't shoot down an incompetent pilot, it requires an 'ace' to do? If an incompetent fool takes out a mech they're just going to get plastered by even the newest noob.

One of the biggest problems I see with VTOLs and ASF in general is that the MOST reliable way of killing them, via air-to-air combat, requires someone to be dedicated to that role. So what happens when nobody wants to do it, or you just don't have good pilots? You get destroyed - you get exactly what the game is right now - the pilots float around absorbing points for some simplistic point-click action, and the rest of the server does their best to ignore them. There's no war of attrition to this - your team can do pretty much nothing unless one or two people decide to sacrifice actually playing Mechwarrior to instead play HAWX or Tower Defense.

[(TLL)Sky_walker]

It takes MANY passes with a Sulla Prime to bring one down

Rotfl! What??? And what was Sulla pilot experience? 5 minutes behind the stick? You can take down Hawkmoth in a single pass without the problem - just AIM and keep firing the engines till you see "bang"

you're only going to land a small fraction of that fire, giving them plenty of time to lock onto you, throw some missiles their way, and lazily float home.

That's why you never approach it with active radar and you always do this from sides. Also attacks from long range when he aims are great as people don't watch the health bars than and they won't know you shoot till it's too late.

they're cheap

That's an issue. I think aeros should have price no less than mid mechs do - this would force game with light mechs for a while, and Sullas wouldn't get all these one-shot-kills they do now. Also it would make their players watch out more and actually try to fight well, not just behave like fools hoping that noone will hit them (happen for me to shoot down 2 or 3 Shivas flying in one place with Fbomb sulla (have mgun) just because they ignored me hoping not to get hit).

[=KH=Dimachaerus]

Did I mention I have practically ZERO flight time in either aircraft? A team of incompetent fools couldn't shoot down an incompetent pilot, it requires an 'ace' to do? If an incompetent fool takes out a mech they're just going to get plastered by even the newest noob.

No, it doesn't take much skill to fly a Vtol, I'll admit that right up front. However, a hawkmoth is eeaaaasy prey for even the newest of Aeorspace pilots. The most danager they represent is the Aero pilot accidentally ramming into the vtol on their pass.

Get someone with some flight time and skill behind the stick however, and they'll clean house in the skies. Want to have some fun at that hover farmer's expense? load up a sulla B (the one with the thunderbolts) get right above/below them, and shoot them out of the sky with them. Laugh as the "WTF!?!?!" pops up in chat, and go reload.

Wanna have some REAL fun? Do that to a Sulla or Shiva. Just be careful of the wreckage, it's an easy way to lose a wing.

PS: A sulla prime is amazing at blowing shit out of the sky, and good at making strafing runs (the srm's are murder on rear armor). As you can see, you don't have to be dedicated to AA to kill. Hell, grab the light gauss harasser, it only costs 11k and once you get the hang of the lead required, you can blow -ANYTHING- out of the sky, while hidden by ECM and high maneuverability. Did I mention it's also very good for hit and run ground work too?

[(TLL) Heretic]

All this talk highlights what my point is about balance, the partisan prime is meant to be the starting AA tank on the ground and it's nerfed against most other targets accordingly, and what we've learned from this beta is that it is not, it's currently unfit for purpose.  Right now the only counter to the 1000m VTOL is another aircraft, and that just is not good enough.

There's many counters to correct this:

1: An aiming reticule for the AA guns, so the lead is calculated and the reticule turns red when the shots shouldhit  (not counting the half second or so it takes the rounds to reach the target).
2: Airburst proximity flak shells, to give splash damage in 10m or so radius of the shells, thus inflicting splash damage, rather than the nerfing system that was introduced in the latest patch.
3: More expensive ASF and VTOLs so there's a chance you'll be in a Huit when you face them.

Right now it's an ASF, VTOL orgy out there, there's little to worry about if you know what your doing, and Cujo's argument sucks IMHO as Kinglear has repeatedly pointed his bias towards VTOLs in previous posts (he may be a Dev but he's not infallible, I've spent maybe 14 hours in the AA partisan, and I'm pretty good at what I do, does that make me an expert enough to make a point of balance?) and these are concerns as to balance.  If we want combined arms then we've got to accept that ground units can fight back effectively, Air units HAVE to NoE, and not just hover above the field to dominate.  And the price has to match the performance, it's really that simple.

*On an aside I hated the VTOL in vanilla crysis, and I can't see anything that has changed to make this VTOL any different, it really does have Zeus like powers as a previous poster has mentioned, and it's just not good enough to say that another air unit is the counter, AA Flak defence SHOULD be a valid career choice, and not a dead end, 30 seconds of fire against one helicopter kinda proves my point here, if you want another example, who many of you have sunk 2LRM20s into one VTOL to see it limping off home?  Does that sound right to you?*