aeros redux: Sulla Prime and Alpha armor balancing

[Redvan]

oh god, make that true for us aeros please!

No.

great argument as to why not i must say!

here's why so:  the Harrasser C is super cheap, and generally a #1 pick for many people just entering the game, so there are usually quite a few out on the field at any given time...  with their 1 shot gauss and their mguns, no matter where the aero is, they're easy pickings.  Too easy.  Not only that, but they're quite easy to pick off with any mech that has a gauss, even with the mechs vertical view limitations.  Add to that MBLs and LBLs which do massive amounts of damage to aeros as well...

Weird, I could talk about how cheap and easy ASFs and VTOLs are too, though I'd be using different meanings of the words...

rather than taking the thread about the news update OT, might as well continue it here.

Here are the downsides of Aeros:
1.  They are weak.  Very weak.  Both Sullas and Shivas

2.  Sulla Prime and Alpha do very little damage, require multiple strafe runs to even kill just a Uller

3.  Sulla Charlie and Delta are nice, but carry very limited ammo, and for the right reasons.

4.  Shivas pack more punch, but refer to point #1

Out right from the beginning of the match, anyone, and many people do, use Harrasser Cs.  Devastating to the weaksauce aeros.  For the amount of damage the Sulla Prime and Alpha do, their armor isn't nearly balanced.

Next to the Sulla Charlie and Delta.  Carry limited ammo, armor is about right for the amount of damage they can do.  I wouldn't complain much about them because they spend alot of time going back to base to get more ammo, they can fly high and fast to get out of harms way.  Prime and Alpha need to stay up close and personal to do damage, and get 1 shot allllllllll the time for it. 

Shivas are fairly balanced between how much damage they can do and how much armor they have.  They usually appear later in the game where alot more focus is on the ground beating on the heavy mechs.  And naturally, they do have a little more armor than the Sullas I believe.  So I dont really complain about them being unbalanced.

My biggest concern is with the Sulla Prime and Alpha having far to little armor for how little damage they can do to ground troops.  These are the two I'd like to see buffed slightly in armor.  It's not far off, but it's certainly off.

[SquareSphere }12thVR{]

hmmm... I dunno, if the other team isn't packing the harasser C's i've gotten several mech kills with a Sulla prime.  The load out is plenty power to really tear up any light mech in 2 passes if you have good trajectories.  In theory the Sulla A should do the same as it's packing as much firepower as a one of the Puma configs.  At the same time, I view both of these as anti air configs so the fact they can't kill hard land targets doesn't seem that imbalanced.

But like I said, if the other team is packing Harasser C's I generally go VTOL instead of Sulla if my team needs air to ground support.   This allows the two different vehicles have specific roles, ie Sulla P and A are anti air, VTOL are air to ground support.

Not to mention if I have aggressive Ullers on my team, they tend to smash all the Harassers since they're the softest land based vehicles.

[Temphage]

The only weapon aircraft truly fear are Gauss rifles, which are carried by only a handful of units - and the ones that are on mechs don't count. Even the Demolisher has to be propped up on a hill to engage air units. The only actual *unit* that you're complaining about is the Harasser, which has less armor than even the Shiva does, and it's only good at anti-air and some anti-BA. Even a clever pilot can Wild Weasel one-shot the Harasser. Everybody on the ground instantly targets the Harassers because you just bump into them to cause them to explode spectacularly.

You might have a point if everyone on the ground was able to dump all kinds of firepower into aircraft, but as it is that's not the case at all. I might even agree with you if LRMs could consistently hit ANYTHING in the air that did more than even a basic maneuver. Again, not the case.

Essentially what you're asking for is for ASFs to be immune to the only real hard counter that ground forces have to deal with them. You want to be able to get hit by a Light Gauss in your little plane that costs next to nothing but carries two missiles capable of causing catastrophic damage to ANYTHING on the ground, and get a 'second chance', for you to go 'oh my, I'm getting hit! This is upsetting!' and slowly cruise away to safety, exactly like how VTOLs react to UAC2/5 fire, exactly how all aircraft react to missile fire. If I had my way, aircraft would simulate reality - if you wander anywhere within range of an anti-aircraft unit, you supernova in mid-flight and die so hard it kills you the next four times you try to respawn.

Yeah, sure, good thing I don't have my way, right? No, because realistically? I'd delete aircraft completely. Just band-box the hangars in every map, press the big 'ol 'DELETE' key, and remove these insipid fapping things from the game completely. I don't know what purpose they're supposed to serve, but the only thing I can gather is that they are there so that Cowboy Roy and his buddy Maverick can vacuum up easy points. ASFs and VTOLs are, without a doubt, the 'sniper' class of MWLL. Every FPS game has this - a category of weaponry or class of player or what-have-you that exists solely to allow one player to have fun and rambo and completely ignore his team and the objectives, and to get easy kills with almost no threat to themselves.

Why do you think people like Marshes so much? Half the reason is because there's no god damn aircraft. Why do you think of the four custom maps we have, there's not a single airfield on ANY of them? Because these damn things serve absolutely no purpose in the game, all they do is frustrate EVERYONE except the one guy running laps between the battlefield, the airfield, and the edge of space.

A not-insignificant amount of people have quit this game because of their frustration with LRM boating and aircraft. I've never even HEARD of someone disliking Marshes or Inferno because "they don't have enough aircraft". I'd happily trade the couple of losers who would cry in their tea and quit the game forever without their precious aircraft if even just for the CHANCE to bring back the ground-pounders that quit this game in sheer irritation because of them.

[RickHunter]

Why do you think people like Marshes so much? Half the reason is because there's no god damn aircraft. Why do you think of the four custom maps we have, there's not a single airfield on ANY of them? Because these damn things serve absolutely no purpose in the game, all they do is frustrate EVERYONE except the one guy running laps between the battlefield, the airfield, and the edge of space.

A not-insignificant amount of people have quit this game because of their frustration with LRM boating and aircraft. I've never even HEARD of someone disliking Marshes or Inferno because "they don't have enough aircraft". I'd happily trade the couple of losers who would cry in their tea and quit the game forever without their precious aircraft if even just for the CHANCE to bring back the ground-pounders that quit this game in sheer irritation because of them.

+1

My favorite map is Marshes because of the lack of air units. It allows me to concentrate on ruining enemy mechs & team play without having to take frustrating potshots at planes that miss 95% of the time (ok, granted,  I'm not the best shot). I just don't want this to turn into BF2 (which *is* a great game). Sure, this issue isn't something new, but man am I glad when the next map rotation is Marshes...

[Snowball]

Clearcut came up twice in a row on rotation today.

I damn near cried.

[(TLL)KitLightning]

snip

You obviously misses the loadout of the Sulla Prime and A. It's not supposed to be used against ground assets but against other aerial assets. And you obviously also misses how an aero has to be used. Keeping above in the sky and out of range of the ground assets before an attack run is engaged. I see time and again aerojocks taking a straight path towards their targets, which of course will tear them apart. Aeros should not take much punishment before they lose both their aerodynamics, e.g. ability to stay afloat.

What is even more ridiculous to see is an aero making extreme turns and flip at will. Or being traced by numerous salvoes of LRM but no missiles hit.

Worst of all is seeing pilots that for some reason dosn't seem that they did enough damage to their intended target keeps flying straight to it, bails out and let the aero do the rest. Or as usual tries to ram their foe in the air.

[(TLL)martinroshak]

Worst of all is seeing pilots that for some reason dosn't seem that they did enough damage to their intended target keeps flying straight to it, bails out and let the aero do the rest. Or as usual tries to ram their foe in the air.

I'm guilty of that, although purely by accident most of the time (except for the time where I was in a Sulla, we had a few seconds left and I was chasing down a Shiva, I just thought it would be funny seeing as it was night, lotsa fireworks).

As to the OP, I sure get annoyed at the Harasser C pilots, but cummon, you've heard the rest of the guys in this thread, they're annoyed as heck at us for being airjocks.  So give them their AA unit, even if you consider it 'undercosted'.  I do am highly frustrated whenever they kill me, but hey, we've got to be killed somehow. 

As to your rant Temphage (I'm not sure what else you could call it)  you raise very valid points in a somewhat... heated manner.  I can tell you despise aerojocks with a passion, and I can understand that from situations we can put you guys in.  But for the firepower we can put out, remember we are incredibly FRAGILE.  Hence the whole argument about the Harasser C.  As to ASF's 'place' in this game, well, they ARE an integral part to combat in the CBT universe.  Very powerful? Yes.  Fast? Yes.  Annoying as hell to deal with if you don't have any practice? Yes.  But beatable.  If you hate Air units so much, learn how to counter them.  Gauss rifles are the best due to our fragility, learn to lead your targets and you'll hit.  Alternatively, let the guy in the Huey next to you kill him.  I think the problem you're having is you're not playing in a 'team' orientated team.  I've seen it too much in this game where everyone goes it alone, but when one person takes charge and assigns roles, aero units are no longer a problem for you (for the most part) and the fight is the way it should be: diverse.

Remember for those aerojocks have spent AGES learning how to fly effectively, flying in this game is no piece of cake, especially considering the joystick support...  don't expect to be able to kill them without just as much practice.  In fact, you'll probably have to practice less.

I understand where you're coming from Redvan, but I don't think it's a problem.   A frustration?  Yes.  An annoyance?  Yes.  A counter? Definitely.  That's the point.

[Raptor Khatib]

Aerospace/VTOL's have a a reason in this game. Thats to keep my ass in a god damn harasser C or Huil A all god damn map long cause no one else can hit anything in the air or are all having fun doing their usual anti-mech/tank routine and even if there is no one in the air for 10min as soon as I go to swap to a mech or something without fail in 5 min someone is going to be buzzing me with firebombs...if the objective of aerospace/VTOL's is to piss people off ( especially VTOL's and their lag armor) well they are AAA+ in effectiveness.

And yes I like marshes alot. I like inferno even more if there was no VTOL's as well. But at least 2/3rds of the annoyances are gone.

And I do agree with Temp anything short of the Gauss and or MG's we might as well be shooting tennis balls at VTOL's and aerospace for how long it takes to knock one out of the air unless your flying like a retard and taking your sweet time flying in a straight line. If you don't believe me hop in a partisan prime or a Huilt prime and have fun. I lay you odds 10-1 inside of 15min you'll be getting in the Harasser C or Huilt A because your tired of Mr. Lag Hop McCoy floating off to base with 2 armor left on his belly to get fixed up in under 2min after you have blown almost half a load of ammo on him. Shooting at the spot he was going to be in and just happened to either skip by or lag turn and not even pass through that spot.

[Freakazoid]

If the problem is prime and A suck at anything but anti-air, maybe they need to switch places with B and C in price? That way, even though the harasser C is still a threat, it'll be your only threat while being capable of actually damaging mechs.

Or you could change prime's SRM to LRM. Something small, but enough to get you a couple points while keeping enough distance to dodge a gauss shot or two.

[(TLL)martinroshak]

If you don't believe me hop in a partisan prime or a Huilt prime and have fun. I lay you odds 10-1 inside of 15min you'll be getting in the Harasser C or Huilt A because your tired of Mr. Lag Hop McCoy floating off to base with 2 armor left on his belly to get fixed up in under 2min after you have blown almost half a load of ammo on him. Shooting at the spot he was going to be in and just happened to either skip by or lag turn and not even pass through that spot.

I believe you I've tried, and the realisation of your annoyance fully dawned on me when I realised that, here in Oz, we rarely have to deal with lag shields.  Now, I can understand THAT entirely.  It's easier to get shot down without the lag, let me tell you that

[Askis]

I'll steal KingLeer's usual answer for this one:

[sgnl05]

If you don't believe me hop in a partisan prime or a Huilt prime and have fun. I lay you odds 10-1 inside of 15min you'll be getting in the Harasser C or Huilt A because your tired of Mr. Lag Hop McCoy floating off to base with 2 armor left on his belly to get fixed up in under 2min after you have blown almost half a load of ammo on him. Shooting at the spot he was going to be in and just happened to either skip by or lag turn and not even pass through that spot.

I believe you I've tried, and the realisation of your annoyance fully dawned on me when I realised that, here in Oz, we rarely have to deal with lag shields.  Now, I can understand THAT entirely.  It's easier to get shot down without the lag, let me tell you that

I don't agree that lag is the only thing keeping aero pilots alive. I play on Oz servers and had a couple of games vs a certain player who plays almost exclusively aircraft , and is pretty good with them (not mentioning names but if you play the oz servers you'll probably know who I'm talking about). He was cleaning up (first in a 2xLRM10 hawkmoth and then in a 2xTbolt sulla) so I decided to jump in a partisan and try and put a stop to him. I was rewarded with a 1:10 kill/death ratio because my AC5s annoyed him just enough to make me his primary target for each run. I wondered what was going on so a few games later I jumped in the same aircraft to see how he could kill me so easily. I figured out that the reason is that both of these aircraft actually outrange the partisan prime by a good 200 metres, allowing you to stay out of range to deliver your payload and avoid most of the partisan's fire. The sulla in particular is a joke; you can narc your target to ensure that your thunderbolts won't miss and then shoot them both off while staying outside the magical 800 metre mark, either one shotting the poor partisan that thought he could do something useful, or crippling him so bad that he'll die if something so much as coughs on him. To me this is the single biggest problem with aircraft right now. When a unit can attack a unit that was designed to counter it from outside of it's maximum effective range you know you have a problem.

[Temphage]

As to ASF's 'place' in this game, well, they ARE an integral part to combat in the CBT universe.  Very powerful? Yes.  Fast? Yes.  Annoying as hell to deal with if you don't have any practice? Yes.  But beatable.

In CBT, ASFs / VTOLs can be shot at by everyone within range. There's a few hangups, like if your ASF is directly above an enemy mech he can't return fire, but in general nobody has a real problem bringing PPCs or LB-X autocannons or heavy gauss to bear against anything that's within firing arcs. They cannot float around 1km in the air safe from everyone like they do now. If you want them to have a role like in CBT, make them behave like they do in CBT.

Also the skill to use the LGauss effectively against aircraft is far higher than the skill to get a NARC lock. Not my fault you picked the worst controller (joystick) to fly with.

[Irregular_Peanut]

If you don't believe me hop in a partisan prime or a Huilt prime and have fun. I lay you odds 10-1 inside of 15min you'll be getting in the Harasser C or Huilt A because your tired of Mr. Lag Hop McCoy floating off to base with 2 armor left on his belly to get fixed up in under 2min after you have blown almost half a load of ammo on him. Shooting at the spot he was going to be in and just happened to either skip by or lag turn and not even pass through that spot.

I believe you I've tried, and the realisation of your annoyance fully dawned on me when I realised that, here in Oz, we rarely have to deal with lag shields.  Now, I can understand THAT entirely.  It's easier to get shot down without the lag, let me tell you that

I don't agree that lag is the only thing keeping aero pilots alive. I play on Oz servers and had a couple of games vs a certain player who plays almost exclusively aircraft , and is pretty good with them (not mentioning names but if you play the oz servers you'll probably know who I'm talking about). He was cleaning up (first in a 2xLRM10 hawkmoth and then in a 2xTbolt sulla) so I decided to jump in a partisan and try and put a stop to him. I was rewarded with a 1:10 kill/death ratio because my AC5s annoyed him just enough to make me his primary target for each run. I wondered what was going on so a few games later I jumped in the same aircraft to see how he could kill me so easily. I figured out that the reason is that both of these aircraft actually outrange the partisan prime by a good 200 metres, allowing you to stay out of range to deliver your payload and avoid most of the partisan's fire. The sulla in particular is a joke; you can narc your target to ensure that your thunderbolts won't miss and then shoot them both off while staying outside the magical 800 metre mark, either one shotting the poor partisan that thought he could do something useful, or crippling him so bad that he'll die if something so much as coughs on him. To me this is the single biggest problem with aircraft right now. When a unit can attack a unit that was designed to counter it from outside of it's maximum effective range you know you have a problem.

I really enjoy shooting down that particular individual.

He gets nailed when I'm in a Demolisher A as well, cute watching him go passive and high altitude and I just see him via LOS instead, thinks he's being sneaky when he appears from behind only to cop a metal slug to the face.

Or when he makes a resolution to kill me as an LRM Hawkmoth so I just waste his time by sitting underneath a rock overhang for the next few minutes, still end up shooting him down.

[Redvan]

as i said in my original post:  Sulla C and D are fine with their current amount of armor.  Its the Prime and A that are vastly under armored for how much damage they're capable of.

Yes, I mentioned the harasser as the biggest anti-aero, but I only mentioned that one because it's so cheap and easy to use, and available from the get go.  Later in the game many more tanks and mechs are out on the field with weaponry that'll one shot or nearly one shot the Sulla Prime and A.  Given the limited attack range of the Prime and A, there's bound to be a tank or mech in the general vicinity that has the capability of taking the sulla down.  I've effectively used scat primes, atlas, awesome, and mkIIs as "AA", it's quite easy, quite a bit easier than people may think.  Infact, late in the game shooting aeros is like popping BAs heads.  Its frikin easy.

so yeah, if I were in a prime or A, bearing down from directly above on an enemy mech, i'm still a dam easy target for every other mech/tank in the general vicinity.  Given my SRMs or lasers aren't going to do much damage, it makes using the sulla prime or A pretty much pointless against ground targets.  Frankly, I'd much rather go dogfight with another aero, but there isn't anyone good enough worth dogfighting.  I shoot them down, they try again, i shoot them down, they go get in a harasser C and instagib me.

Yes, I agree the Prime and A are primarily for air to air, but when I'm chasing down another aero or VTOL, i'm an even easier target for those harassers and mechs at the proper angle.  So basically, this is what happens:  I go up to in Prime or A to AA a C or D, I'm a dam easy target because that C or D is on their half of the map/over their base 80% of their flight.  I get shot down easily, they don't because they have tons of ground support and base turrets.  This allows them to keep making runs out using the tbolts or fbombs that everyone hates the most.  So in reality, the lack of armor on the Prime and A is what's making it worse for all those of you complaining about "aero's being OP or annoying".

also:  I love marshes the most too... my score is always better in it because I'm not getting instagibbed in my aero all the time ;P