EHHHHH LONG TOMS?

[Grimm]

@Alien, it's a Beta, i.e a work in progress, i.e shut the fapp up if you don't actually have some useful input and are just going to bitch and moan.

useful input? remove the longtom, reduce lrm damage by 50%, increase lrm splash by 50%, reduce lrm money by 50%.
i thought everybody knew that already?
by work in progress you mean nobody should be able to voice his disappointment but you?

Well, while I might not agree with what you said, at least it's something other than useless complaining.

Bravo. I'm sure it took a lot out of you.

By the way, I like the anti-camp, anti-baserape measure Kadreal conceived.

[Rally]

Well, Toth, you have some ideas to fix the situation, the ball is now on your side of the field. I hope it all works out.

But generally speaking, why do we even need an asset such as the Long Tom? I mean, the last thing this game needs is more players standing off and shooting projectiles into the air. Am I right? And even without that cannon, players often try hard to turn this game into a static trench warfare standoff situation. Is that what we want? I don't want that!

[Kadreal]

Might be worth disabling the ability for a long tom to fire if it's gun within Anti log tom range of it's own base. An easy way to do this is to simply have it blow up any long tom shell regardless of incoming or outgoing.

Now this idea I like 

I also like that idea, and I hope it's employed. Might also be worthwhile to consider doing that to missiles while within calliope range for the same reasons.

This might workout well and it might not. Where do you draw the line? Does it just shoot down LRMs and long toms? or does this include MRMs and SRMs? shooting down the long range stuff only would certainly encourage more close range engagements with the turrets providing a notable advantage for the defending team...

Also quick edit here, you may want to make this AMS system have a gradual falloff, so there isn't just a line you can cross to suddenly be able to fire LRMs and then take a step back making yourself immune to LRMs. Either have it a chance based per firing cycle to shoot down the LRM/ long tom based on distance from the AMS(or whatever you want to call it, maybe BAMS?) or perhaps some other method. We really don't want defenders abusing it in any fashion.

[AlienMind]

We aren't, we're just asking for patience for something thats being given for free.

That is really hard but I'll try (and wait for the next patch with hopefully equal gameplay as subjective, the previous one). You must understand we have some playerbase and some word of mouth going on. Realeasing a public beta with this sheer quality is a double edged sword I guess.
Nobody can take away that you OFFICIALLY RULED THE MOD WORLD. Try to live with the heat too :-)

[Toth]

Well, Toth, you have some ideas to fix the situation, the ball is now on your side of the field. I hope it all works out.

But generally speaking, why do we even need an asset such as the Long Tom? I mean, the last thing this game needs is more players standing off and shooting projectiles into the air. Am I right? And even without that cannon, players often try hard to turn this game into a static trench warfare standoff situation. Is that what we want? I don't want that!

No thats not what we want, but honestly maybe you can't see the fun in shooting a big ass cannon, but I certainly can. Just because it currently has problems, doesn't mean it doesn't have a place in the game.

[Temphage]

You have no idea what we have planned for the near future, let alone long term.

So why not tell us? If the Long Tom were brought up, I don't know, a month ago, you know what I would've said? "Let's not make it like Planetside, where you can just park the stupid thing on a hillside, aim the cannon at the ground, and one-hit-kill everything within range." Because that was a game that made the same exact mistake you guys did with your implementation of artillery. You blew it. Admit the mistake, fix it, and move on.

That said, I fully supported the mod NOT being released because I knew this was going to happen. You can't gradually trickle in new features and expect people to just shut up and color. It's like you're building a house, only you started with one wall, the roof, and the living room carpeting. You can't call it a house until it's complete, but at the same time, you can't add in load-bearing supports and foundation three months after construction started.

Your description of the game is not our intention in the slightest

- Reduced Gauss damage vs. aircraft so one-shot-kills are no longer possible.
- Implemented mech-slagging one-shot-kill Long Tom.

Yes, this is me being antagonistic, I realize and admit that. But put yourself in my shoes. Read between those lines, what do you see? Couple this with what I see in the aero vs. mech relation.

I'm not too proud to admit that I played World of Warcraft for a while. A rogue, specifically. I quit the game because Blizzard was balancing classes in a cyclic pattern, and rogues were at the END of the cycle. So I endured being worthless in Battleground mass PVP for MONTHS as they made every other class better vs. rogues. I eventually said 'fapp this' and quit, because I was tired of waiting for it to finally swing my way.

and as I said before you need to cool it a bit. You're starting to sound like Joseph McCarthy at this point.

You want to know why I'm passionate about this? Because I love this game just as much as you. It's hard to do right now, but I still do. I can't make models, I can only do basic stuff in Photoshop, I don't know code. But I know mechanics, and I present my insight into these mechanics for you. Do you think I spend my time making posts like this because I hate this game? You think that if this game were truly utter shit, that I didn't like what you have done and think that there were hope here at all, I'd still be here?

No, I'm upset because a feature was implemented that, by your own admission, is missing critical 'balance' features, and then I'm asked to wait an unknown period of time for future assets to show up to make it work. The game is unplayable now. I cannot actually finish a round on the best map in the game, Marshes, without alt-f4ing after watching my 75 ton mech wearing 10,000 pounds of ablative composite armor lose an arm and a leg because a little free-falling unaimed artillery shell landed NEAR me. After being anxious to play this mod for the weekend, I now realize I probably will never play it until the next patch.

I have nothing personal against you guys (well except for some things KingLeer has said), nothing here is a personal attack on you, it's an attack on the game, and me calling 'em like I see 'em. Maybe it's my massive ego, but like my tone or not, you'd be a fool to ignore the things I've said. There's a reason people agree with me once they learn to cut through my shit.

All that said, I firmly believe that the Long Tom is going to kill what LRM camping and aero whoring couldn't. The game RAPIDLY shed players a month after release for a variety of reasons (not all of them within dev control, sure). Your hardcore fans are going to be the ones who will stick it out, and I'm one of them. But I think this patch is going to hurt that small group even more.

We can only take so much. I won't give up yet (unfortunately for you), but I think this may be enough to make many others simply stop wasting their time. Again, it's becoming harder and harder to love this mod, and that's not because of a failing on my part.

[Friedrich Psitalon]

Now that, Temphage, was a reasonable, well-crafted and considered post, and I applaud it. As I've said before, I'm not sure I see the Longtom problem as quite as severe as others consider it, but your manner of presentation in that post does a lot more for me to consider the wisdom of your view.

Particularly, in fact, your pointing out that aero is no longer "one shot one kill" in any case, and mechs at this point are. That DOES seem an odd dichotomy, particularly if the internal testing revealed this is possible - and it should've. Why was the TOM released with that capability if we're looking to avoid that in a playstyle now?

That's not an attacking question; it's a curiosity one. It seems odd to backstep your overall design philosophy, even temporarily, just to have a new toy out, for just the reasons we're seeing: it's causing a lot of angst.

[AlienMind]

No thats not what we want, but honestly maybe you can't see the fun in shooting a big ass cannon, but I certainly can.

fun in shooting a weapon which requires zero skill to fire, just selecting an enemy on the radar, then hearing just a hit sound?

sounds like the fun i'm having in a catapult b when standing on a hill as i'm jumping up, wait for some icon to turn red, and then firing, finally hearing some money racking up.

it seems like we have a totally different viewpoint of fun

[Temphage]

Aeros have never been one-shot-one-kill.

However, they can do a LOT of damage to mechs, enough to make them so crippled before they even REACH the battle that they may as well have been killed. A Timberwolf with a broken rear torso is worthless to me, much less missing giant patches of armor all over. TBolts are the most popular aerial weapon for a reason.

[Alendor]

i like how the long tom reduces missile camping.  was on a sandblasted map today, and whenever we spotted missile boats, we ran in a c3 unit, and our long tommer took down their boats. 

the long tom pushes the front lines closer together, as idle long range standing and firing becomes longtom targets.  thus more brawling, and more mech battling.  in my view its a great addition, and with a few tweaks it'll be in good shape.  anyone who expected it to be implemented perfectly on its first release to the game is a fool

[Rally]

No thats not what we want, but honestly maybe you can't see the fun in shooting a big ass cannon, but I certainly can. Just because it currently has problems, doesn't mean it doesn't have a place in the game.

Thanks for replying. Your point is taken. Maybe it can be fun, not for me, but for others. But I still don't agree with its general idea, but that's just me.

[Toth]

We can only take so much. I won't give up yet (unfortunately for you), but I think this may be enough to make many others simply stop wasting their time. Again, it's becoming harder and harder to love this mod, and that's not because of a failing on my part.

Re-read that for a second man. You can only take so much? You're being given a mod, for free, with features on the level of a commercial game, specifically because we want to make the community happy while still having artistic freedom. Its the best of both worlds for everyone involved, and all you have to do is be patient. To tell me you can only take so much is ridiculous, all the dev's have busted their asses for this thing, and it really is a labor of love. So while we appreciate the criticism, doing it in the manner you do, does not help. You can't get on here and rant with vitriol and expect the dev team to respect that. Its nothing but the snake eating its own tail. You're trying to create a division because it doesn't fit your vision, but honestly it isn't even complete. So what does that help?

Saying we should have waited is also silly at best, we aren't a commercial house we don't get paid for this. There is a ton of content here already, and most of it works quite well other than small bugs here and there. Balance in  EVERY complex multiplayer game shifts with time, as you yourself pointed out. The big difference is we don't have to try to please 10 million people and keep them hooked on with carrots on a stick.

[Toth]

No thats not what we want, but honestly maybe you can't see the fun in shooting a big ass cannon, but I certainly can.

fun in shooting a weapon which requires zero skill to fire, just selecting an enemy on the radar, then hearing just a hit sound?

sounds like the fun i'm having in a catapult b when standing on a hill as i'm jumping up, wait for some icon to turn red, and then firing, finally hearing some money racking up.

it seems like we have a totally different viewpoint of fun

Its more complicated then that and you know it. Its not as simple as pressing the targeting button and firing. Also fun is more than just the person being hit or the person firing. Fun is also seeing an enemy missile camper, calling for artillery support, and watching a shell cruise in to take him out, maybe even causing a critical mech explosion. Just because you can't see the forest through the trees, doesn't mean it isn't there.

[Temphage]

As much as the pure mechers would like to see otherwise, this is a combined arms game. You should not be able to win simply by stacking a team with all mechs

I'm a superior mech pilot, but my skills are meaningless when facing deliberately implemented mechanics that say I lose 'just because'.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be clever weaknesses that can be exploited. Battle Armors vs. Assaults (and some heavies) is a *great* example. BAs don't have some ungodly fapping weapon that causes Atlas legs to simply fall off. In order to dance with a mech, you need to be slightly fapping crazy and pretty good at being a BA. But they can still be killed by a mech pilot who knows what he's doing. It's a relationship that is functional (I won't say it works because I think BA still need a few things here or there).

Now, I almost don't want the Claw, because I foresee that will be the 'deliberately implemented mechanic that says you lose'.

But for Aeros vs. Mechs, there's no 'weakness' to be exploited. The only practical defense was taken away from mechs. You simply circle like buzzards, hoping your *OWN* 'deliberately implemented you lose mechanic' doesn't show up. Is that what we want this to be? Instant rape until you get instantly raped?

If all else fails? Fight the giant pile of mechs with your own pile of mechs. Because that's what they're designed to do. This is why 'pure mech' games worked, because mechs are balanced vs. each other in many ways. The 'combined arms' idea where an aero = a mech is part of what's breaking this balance.

CBT is 'combined arms', with artillery, BA, tanks, and other units that we don't even have, and it works there too. There's hardly even any 'omg bullshit' moments. Yes, there's a big divide between a tabletop game and a video game, but just because the puzzle pieces are shaped differently doesn't mean the picture can't be the same.

I regularly get 1-shotted by an alpha from a heavy or assault mech.

The Long Tom is basically a superweapon at this point. Superweapons in games have downsides (like the Redeemer in UT), that doesn't mean the ability to instantly blow up 4 players in a giant nuke is any less of a superweapon. The Long Tom could be destroyed by a single SRM missile for all I care, if you destroyed 5 mechs before you were killed, that's STILL overpowered.

[Kadreal]

Temp, I don't think anyone is really debating that Long Toms will need some tweaking before they are considered finalized. This sort of issue is not uncommon at all for new features, a new unit is implemented and it turns out to be too powerful. Give them a chance to fine tune it a bit.

As for LRM I feel that they have done a good job at reducing their effectiveness. They are still useful, but with the addition of LAMS and the general increase in cost of LRM boats makes them less common and not as effective. This is not to say I think it's perfect as is, but it is certainly a step forward.