EHHHHH LONG TOMS?

[Barbaric Soul]

just left the server temphage was playing in. Spent 1 1/2 hours DL'ing the mod, spent ten minutes in the server. Died 3 times before even seeing a enemy mech/tank. Went out of a flank and moved up a hill to take a shot with my guass (I was passive radar since I left my hangar), got hit by a tom with absolutely no warning, lost both legs and all weapons(mech was fresh), shut down game and started wondering what I'm gonna do with the rest of my day.

[Alendor]

longtoms dont' seem so bad on sandblasted, but marshes is way too small for them.  when i played there were several litterally sitting inside their hander shooting out the door.

longtoms should be attached only to the largest of maps.

[Bowrrl]

I think they need a bigger min range and longer max range.

Also the range/travel-time data shouldn't pop up unless you are targeting a unit that is Narc'd or being TAGed. It's way too easy to use for way to much profit at the moment.

[Temphage]

longtoms dont' seem so bad on sandblasted, but marshes is way too small for them.  when i played there were several litterally sitting inside their hander shooting out the door.

longtoms should be attached only to the largest of maps.

Here's some ideas to fix them:

1) 1 shell = 1 ton = 1 load of ammo. This will absolutely FORCE them to rely on open supply lines to function. A five-round magazine is four too many.
2) Make them 'lock down' to fire, a painstakingly long process.
3) Force the Long Tom to use a HIGH PARABOLIC arc. None of this 'looking down' bullshit. You aim way the fapp up in the sky, making it all but worthless against anything that's moving, and making you completely blind as to what's going on.

Or, even better?

1) Make Long Toms a simple AI-controlled battery that sits in your base, replace the BA 'flashbang' (NARC grenade) with an artillery beacon that's UNABLE to be carried inside of vehicles, make said beacon cost a million billion cbills (or something like that). You toss out your one beacon, the cannons fire Battlefield 2 style, and a while later they land wherever your beacon was when they fired.

Either way:

1) Remove almost all of their damage. Make them fire FBombs for all I care. The current shell does way, way, way too much damage. A mech is too fapping slow to justify any weapon that knocks off 80-90% of its armor in a single hit. Because that's exactly what this is now. I leave my hangar in my shiny new Thanatos, on the way to the battle I randomly explode and go all blood-red (assuming my legs didn't get demolished instantly), now I'm forced to turn around and walk all the way back to the hangar to repair.

It was bad enough having Aeros take off half your armor before you got to the fight, effectively putting you at a massive disadvantage before you even got to do anything (basically guaranteeing your death). Honestly, at the rate this is going, the next patch will feature BA lasers slicing mech arms off instantly. And the patch after is going to have a feature where if you get in a mech at all, your computer starts emitting neutron radiation for a while before it randomly explodes and kills you.

[Brainwright]

There definitely needs to be a setup time between the point where the Long Tom stops, and it fires.

I was playing on Marshes, trying to kill this lone Long Tom gunman.  The man had perfect aim.  He was lobbing shells at me 30 seconds after I went passive and should have been off radar.

That wasn't the worst part, though.  When ever I tried flanking him in a light mech, he simply turned the Long Tom to face me and obliterated me as soon as I stepped out from cover.  That is, he turned the vehicle and then adjusted the turret as needed.

I think it's unreasonable to expect a heavy mech to do better.   I don't think they could even outrun the turret, much less the turret and vehicle-turn combined.

As it is, the Long Tom is just too convenient.  Give it some hassles to make it feel like a real artillery piece, and not just a new vehicle with a big gun.  Give a rangefinder on the map.  The distance gauge for mechs is just too damned small.  The vehicle gauge is 1000x better.

[Barbaric Soul]

Sure it's weapon is powerful but it's easy to counter it.

I sure would like someone to explain this to me. Active radar, passive radar, move with the pack, move out on the flanks by myself, nothing mattered. The only LT I ever saw was my teams. No chance to even get close to the other teams LTs. But I damn sure got killed by the other teams toms pretty easily.

[Askis]

Aah Temphage, it was about damn time too

Haven't played enough to confirm/deny any of this, the only time I took out a LT was on Extremity (10 players total) I don't think I hit anything with my full load of ammo (but I probably just suck at lobbing the shells at the point someone's going to be, stationary would be easy though)  and when a Thanatos crested a hill, I missed the direct shot and died a few seconds afterwards

He was lobbing shells at me 30 seconds after I went passive and should have been off radar.

The Longtom has BAP, which means it can detect passive 'Mechs at 750m out.


To all those asking how the hell to kill if you can't get close with 'Mechs/Vehicles, next time try to find one or two teammates and go out as BA, they should be able to close in easily and since they are small and maneuverable, should be a pain to hit.

[ratbuddy]

First off, the bile spitting and QQ isn't going to help anything. Let's try to limit ourselves to constructive criticism, ehh?

Long Tom is powerful, yes, but it's supposed to be. Some balancing is needed, but nothing so drastic as tempage is suggesting.

My suggestions would be:

Limit the number of toms per team to 1 or 2, depending on server size. Decrease the speed by another 10kph or so. The clip size is fine, but increase the weapon cycle time by 50% or so. Slow down the turret a bit to make it a little less easy to bullseye an approaching unit at 300 meters. Cut the cbill reward from a hit. I've gotten 75k cbills from a single shot, and consistently made over 200k before dying. Decrease radar range to 750 meters or so, make it rely on C3 mechs to acquire targets at longer ranges.

Starting with small changes like that, we'll have a better chance of the unit remaining viable while not being too overpowered.

Oh yeah, about the rock paper scissors thing: There's a perfect counter to toms, and it isn't aeros. It's another Long Tom. I was prioritizing my fire towards eliminating the enemy toms and it worked fine - our mechs weren't being blasted at all.

Unrelated, I do think AA has become far too powerful. AC/RAC damage was perhaps tuned up a bit too far. Machineguns also need a maximum range.

[(TLL) Zeh]

I haven't tried the new patch yet, but from reading this thread, I'm pretty positive they are a detriment, not improvement, to the game.  The LAST thing that should happen in a game like this, is that you get killed without being able to defend yourself or knowing anything was coming.  That NEVER HAPPENING is ideal, and it sounds like this thing is designed to do exactly that.

BTW, I am also against any mech (or vehicle) being able to be one-shot by any single volley unless it's extreme. (90k+ asset vs <20k asset)

[Friedrich Psitalon]

I haven't tried the new patch yet, but from reading this thread, I'm pretty positive they are a detriment, not improvement, to the game.  The LAST thing that should happen in a game like this, is that you get killed without being able to defend yourself or knowing anything was coming.  That NEVER HAPPENING is ideal, and it sounds like this thing is designed to do exactly that.

BTW, I am also against any mech (or vehicle) being able to be one-shot by any single volley unless it's extreme. (90k+ asset vs <20k asset)

1. Any statement that is begun with "I haven't played, but I've read" is instantly invalid. No, seriously. Play before commenting.

2. If you have a problem with being killed without knowing it's coming, you must have a problem with ALMOST ALL FPS-type games. This type of killing happens all the time, and it is known as "sniping." At least Longtoms can't instantly duck behind cover afterwards.

3. Longtoms knocking out longtoms is another excellent example of why these aren't overpowered: it's perfectly possible to counter them with your own. Combat elements effectively negating each other in a battle is a common situation - it then falls on other elements to beat each other, so that they can unbalance the first "deadlock." When that happens, one side dominates.

4. The Longtom IS a somewhat expensive asset - something you'd know if you'd played, instead of just reading a thread - and tends to only oneshot lighter mechs, but it admittedly does tremendous damage even to heavier ones. The problem is more that, provided you get off a few hits before you die, Longtoms pay for themselves easily.

I'd guess the reason Longtom fire is so lucrative is the massive splash - you're hitting lots and lots of panels, and so you're getting financially rewarded for all of them.

I would rather see the cost for a Longtom go up somewhat (30-40%) and the cost for Longtom shells go WAY up (200-300%.)

[(TLL) Zeh]

2. If you have a problem with being killed without knowing it's coming, you must have a problem with ALMOST ALL FPS-type games. This type of killing happens all the time, and it is known as "sniping." At least Longtoms can't instantly duck behind cover afterwards.

Not at all, played the crap out of CSS, was very good, I play a good bit of TF2, many other games with sniping, etc. From what it sounds like, Longtoms don't have to duck behind cover afterwards, they're firing from cover to begin with.  People can't get in range to harm them, and they die.  I know the whole "you didn't try it, shut up" argument is great, but I've played this game quite a bit already, I know the mechanics, I can tell exactly how I will feel the first, second, and hundreth time I'm walking in a "secure" area and am instantly killed.  I will not like the game for that moment.  If it happens a lot, the feeling will stick.

[Checker]

It's a BETA people, meant to be tweaked and critiqued. Lots of good suggestions in here and I would like to say to the developers --- THANK YOU very much for this mod, I enjoy it immensely as do a lot of others and we all learn a little more each time we fire it up. The warriors that stick it out will figure it out and elevate their game play. Those that cut and run are probably gonna cut and run anyway. So again amidst all this negative (and some positive) voicing of opinion and adding how they would fix it I say again THANK YOU for bringing this mod to life and did I mention it's FREE and it's part in reviving a stagnant mech warrior world that some of us old timers have long awaited. Just keep bringing it and we'll keep on playing it and getting better with each update and patch. 

[Friedrich Psitalon]

See, that's just it. You're READING, not playing, and you're only READING from the people who don't like it. Those people, as a result, tend to dramatize and exaggerate to make their opinions more valid. The people who have no problem with the system aren't posting - they're playing.

I've already made an art form out of plowing those things with Harassers or some random scooty light vessel. Contrary to the dramatists, if you're moving FAST laterally there's no way in hades you'll be hit by a Longtom, aside from a blind luck shot, and y'know what, luck's part of fighting. If you're running passive in a Harasser, you'll kill LTs a great deal of the time - yes, you'll probably die shortly thereafter because you're in an enemy-dominated position, but you've just traded a supercheap for an expensive.

An APC that quietly drives around the back of the map and sets up could also be hell on earth for a Longtom team, as a stream of well-equipped BA keep appearing from behind without explanation and grinding up LT's.

There are lots of solutions - but most of them require teamwork, and all of them require creativity. People are too busy kneejerking to the changing paradigm of "Keep moving and don't hold still, even at your base" to think on that.

[^sPikE-]

It's a BETA people, meant to be tweaked and critiqued. Lots of good suggestions in here and I would like to say to the developers --- THANK YOU very much for this mod, I enjoy it immensely as do a lot of others and we all learn a little more each time we fire it up. The warriors that stick it out will figure it out and elevate their game play. Those that cut and run are probably gonna cut and run anyway. So again amidst all this negative (and some positive) voicing of opinion and adding how they would fix it I say again THANK YOU for bringing this mod to life and did I mention it's FREE and it's part in reviving a stagnant mech warrior world that some of us old timers have long awaited. Just keep bringing it and we'll keep on playing it and getting better with each update and patch.

QFT

+1

[=]FC[=Striker]

See, that's just it. You're READING, not playing, and you're only READING from the people who don't like it. Those people, as a result, tend to dramatize and exaggerate to make their opinions more valid. The people who have no problem with the system aren't posting - they're playing.

I've already made an art form out of plowing those things with Harassers or some random scooty light vessel. Contrary to the dramatists, if you're moving FAST laterally there's no way in hades you'll be hit by a Longtom, aside from a blind luck shot, and y'know what, luck's part of fighting. If you're running passive in a Harasser, you'll kill LTs a great deal of the time - yes, you'll probably die shortly thereafter because you're in an enemy-dominated position, but you've just traded a supercheap for an expensive.

An APC that quietly drives around the back of the map and sets up could also be hell on earth for a Longtom team, as a stream of well-equipped BA keep appearing from behind without explanation and grinding up LT's.

There are lots of solutions - but most of them require teamwork, and all of them require creativity. People are too busy kneejerking to the changing paradigm of "Keep moving and don't hold still, even at your base" to think on that.

I think you are under stating the effect a bit. You may have been able to use a Harasser to get in on a Long Tom, but that is a very situational event. If the person in the Long Tom has half a brain they will ensure they are covered well by enough firepower in between them and an enemy, that an enemy would not make it. Due to map sizes and restrictions you have no way of really exploiting a hole in the defense by just looping around giving the enemy a wide berth.

So while it is possible to get in on a LT that is horribly placed, the simple fact is that most LTs I have run into so far has remained very close to their base, which amplifies the risk to a lone unit when factoring in extra reinforcements from spawn.

There are indeed ways to take care of a LT, but that does not change the fact that the LT is can one shot almost every asset in the game.

Striker