Author Topic: Origin User Base Expands  (Read 526 times)

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Offline CGB [Blackthorne]

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Re: Origin User Base Expands
« Reply #45 on: Today at 06:08:44 AM »
I hate EA for a long list of reasons. I never intend to install Origin or to knowingly purchase a game that requires Origin to install. Aside from a few select titles, I've been trying to boycott EA Games. They've got fingers in so many pies now that completely boycotting their titles is almost impossible. I would honestly prefer to see them gain a serious competitor rather than them creating Origin in an attempt to squash Steam. There's no way Valve can compete against a gigantic publisher like EA. EA are the largest publisher in the US and Europe. A fifth of the games on store shelves in the USA come from EA. It's not really a fair fight.

Maybe its just a British thing, me supporting the underdog, but I've never seen a good thing come out of EA yet. I'm going to stop talking about EA now before I write a book explaining the many reasons why I loathe them as a group...

Too bad this is not happening on the Mass Effect part of their forums... <_<

Lol, Mass Effect was one of my favorite games of all time, but I've had Mass Effect 2 installed since June of 2010 and STILL haven't played past the tutorial level. I got as far as the first cutscene after the ship blows up and haven't been back since. At this rate ME3 isn't going to be a problem. ;D

Offline CHHš Aethon

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Re: Origin User Base Expands
« Reply #46 on: Today at 07:01:18 AM »
Lol, Mass Effect was one of my favorite games of all time, but I've had Mass Effect 2 installed since June of 2010 and STILL haven't played past the tutorial level. I got as far as the first cutscene after the ship blows up and haven't been back since. At this rate ME3 isn't going to be a problem. ;D

That was sad as hell when the Normandy got carved up;  I think I am going to cry if EDI gets...'killed', lol.

That's not so bad, it's the people who don't buy it ever no matter how much they enjoy that's the bigger problem. If a game had a 90% piracy rate, but 50% of those pirates bought it, the effective no-buy is only 45%. Thing is, noone has those numbers. With no real penalty for not buying it after you try it, there's no incentive to. You can't make an effective business model on the assumption that initially 90% of the copies are going to be pirated, but half of that number will enjoy and buy the product. Even if you did, you're still losing 45% of the income from the distribution of your product, what other industry deals with a 45% non-return on investment?

I personally believe these companies need to offer an INCENTIVE to get these people to purchase their product, rather than going after them Ordo-Malleus-style.  Rather than "how can we possibly make these assholes pay", perhaps they should remember the old adage about catching more flies with honey.  If they went about this the other way, and made into a "here's a bonus for supporting us" mindset, I think they would get more of these people to chip in.

I also believe that MOST pirates WILL pay for games of developers they truly wish to support.  Then you have games that do not have any demo available; take Skyrim for example.  I have never been a fan of sword-and-board type of games, so I was very skeptical, in spite of all the rave reviews; I could not find a demo, so I did not even bother at all.  Then, someone told me I could try a ripped copy; I tried it, and bought a copy of the game on Steam less than 24 hours later.

So...piracy literally sold another copy of Skyrim for Bethesda; also, the DLC that is coming out will be mine, so that is DLC that was also sold as a result.  I also bought a membership to Skyrim Nexus, because of the sheer volume of awesome mods being cranked out/hosted there, which also never would have happened without piracy.

Another thing to consider: Stardock has a "gamer's bill of rights" posted on their forums, and they have NO DRM on Sins of a Solar Empire.  I have sold four copies of that game AND its two expansions, purely from letting people try the game, then telling them to buy a copy when they could afford it, if they liked it.  Stardock's forums are rather full of people who tried a friend's copy for free, then bought the game for themselves.

TL;DR: I feel most developers/publishers are going about it backward; rather than trying to punish people who pirate their software, they should try to lure them in with some sort of benefit of actual software ownership (or maybe making games that are actually worth owning...I wish I had never paid for Modern Warfare 2 or Black Ops; if these are transferrable via Steam, and if anyone wants mine, you can have them).
“I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell.” - Harry S. Truman

Offline ~SJ~ Xarg Talasko

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Re: Origin User Base Expands
« Reply #47 on: Today at 07:11:53 AM »
While I appreciate the offer, I'll have to pass on blops and modern snorefare thanks ;). I agree with the sentiment that people should make it worth our while to buy the game instead of pirate it, but some people are just never going to do that. As long as the crack scene keeps churning out the things it does that allow someone to use a full product for free, it's very hard to compete with that business model. The DRM path is definately not the way to go, but it also is the way to go. Assassin's Creed 2 had that always on DRM crap from Ubi, and a stable crack took so long to come out I imagine a bunch of people just bought the game. Maybe. Or they gave up. On the flipside, The Witcher 2 had no DRM, and was still pirated silly. The Humble Indie Bundle, that you could buy for 1 US cent, was pirated massively as well. If you can't compete with pirates at the price point of 1 cent, even if they have to jump through hoops with possibly infected cracks, your options for actually getting a return on your investment become very limited.

IMO - the biggest problem here is lack of concrete numbers for all important aspects. Yes we might be given semi accurate figures for the total piracy rate, but you never see figures for how many people bought them (and whether or not a purchase removed a pirated copy in their tabulations - probably not leading to 1 sale and 1 pirated copy both being recorded from the same user), even still, the ratios don't hold up. If 900/1000 people pirated a game, and 75% bought it after trying it, it wouldn't still have a figure of 80%+ for being pirated, it'd be much closer to something like 66% or less. This is currently not the case, as per released numbers (note that I do not put it past them to hide some of the numbers coming in to ramp up the scare factor)


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Offline Mitchpate

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Re: Origin User Base Expands
« Reply #48 on: Today at 07:12:49 AM »
If you count aftermarket sales, consoles likely have a higher piracy rate than PC.  Whenever gamestop or blockbuster sell a used game, the money goes straight in their pocket.  Yet, strangely enough, no one cares about that.  How is that any more morally acceptable in this type of argument than pure piracy?

Btw, I pirate virtually every game before I buy it.  Why?  Because I got tired of spending money on "AAA titles" (massive quote, unquote) that looked awesome and had tons of hype but turned out to be utter crap.  Developers covered the crap with cheesy marketing and horribly misrepresentative demos.  Were it not for Activision, and lately EA's, abysmal development practices I would still buy every game like I used to.  They caused my habits and I'd bet you money they've caused many others to develop similar practices.  Sure there are people out there who will never legally buy a game because they simply don't care, but there are far more that are simply tired of wasting $50 or $60 (don't even get me started on the price increase) on games that are typically crap, were quickly thrown together using as small a budget as possible, were rushed through alpha/beta testing because hey it's hard finding all those bugs, and then pushed out with barely any content so they can sell expansions and DLC.

If a game is good and worth the money, I buy it.  If it's terrible, I uninstall.  If it's good but not worth the asking price, which is usually the case, I uninstall and wait for the price to go down.

And yes, I have friends who even if I gave them a link to the torrent still wouldn't pirate the game.  There are honest people still out there, typically they're the ones who've managed to avoid EA.


you realize that piracy on consoles is rampant and pathetically easy, right? devs go to consoles because console users have a higher propensity to pay 60$ for a shitty game. the piracy smokescreen is a ruse to justify their ruination-for-profit of my hobby.
This sums it up nicely.  One thing to add, part of the reason console users don't mind spending $60 on any game that comes along is because they can always resell it later.  When you buy a PC game, you're typically stuck with it.  You think EA heavily encouraged users to register their keys on Origin to make things easier for the user?  Once that key's registered they can't sell their game to someone else.  That other person has to go buy a copy at the retail price.



Another thing to consider: Stardock has a "gamer's bill of rights" posted on their forums, and they have NO DRM on Sins of a Solar Empire.  I have sold four copies of that game AND its two expansions, purely from letting people try the game, then telling them to buy a copy when they could afford it, if they liked it.  Stardock's forums are rather full of people who tried a friend's copy for free, then bought the game for themselves.
I pirated Sins and then turned around and bought it.  When Rebellion comes out I'll be buying it as well.  It's a game I would have never puchased in a million years had I not played it first.  Everyone I know who has it also pirated it first and then bought it.  In fact, a friend of mine that virtually never buys legal copies actually went out and bought it and all the expansions.  When asked why he said it was worth every dime.

Hence my earlier comment.  When you make a product that's worth a damn and stand behind it, you're going to sell it.  That's how the market works.
« Last Edit: Today at 07:19:18 AM by Mitchpate »
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Offline Mitchpate

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Re: Origin User Base Expands
« Reply #49 on: Today at 07:17:47 AM »
IMO - the biggest problem here is lack of concrete numbers for all important aspects. Yes we might be given semi accurate figures for the total piracy rate, but you never see figures for how many people bought them (and whether or not a purchase removed a pirated copy in their tabulations - probably not leading to 1 sale and 1 pirated copy both being recorded from the same user), even still, the ratios don't hold up. If 900/1000 people pirated a game, and 75% bought it after trying it, it wouldn't still have a figure of 80%+ for being pirated, it'd be much closer to something like 66% or less. This is currently not the case, as per released numbers (note that I do not put it past them to hide some of the numbers coming in to ramp up the scare factor)
Because doing the math the CORRECT way doesn't produce the statistics and figures they want.  Like so many other things that are overly hyped: never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
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Offline ~SJ~ Xarg Talasko

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Re: Origin User Base Expands
« Reply #50 on: Today at 07:30:45 AM »
While I agree with your assertion, I also turn it around and note there are no figures what-so-ever for how many pirates bought after they tried. Basically, you and the publishers are trying to argue two sides of the same argument but only one side is releasing numbers, even if they're fistful of salt over the shoulder for trustworthiness. At least they aren't basing their argument solely upon the 'because I assert this' tactic.


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Offline Mitchpate

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Re: Origin User Base Expands
« Reply #51 on: Today at 08:20:06 AM »
While I agree with your assertion, I also turn it around and note there are no figures what-so-ever for how many pirates bought after they tried. Basically, you and the publishers are trying to argue two sides of the same argument but only one side is releasing numbers, even if they're fistful of salt over the shoulder for trustworthiness. At least they aren't basing their argument solely upon the 'because I assert this' tactic.
I'm not arguing that the "tried it then bought it" figure is significant at all.  What I'm saying is that it's greater than zero, which is what developers and anti-piracy groups routinely claim as fact.  If it's greater than zero then there should be some acknowledgement of the fact that there's a reason these people didn't buy the game to start with.  Maybe it was missing features or priced higher than its actual worth.  Doesn't really matter what it is but it is there, nonetheless.  Publishers have a marketing department who's job is solely to market products and attempt to determine why something isn't selling.  Unfortunately, Dilbert is pretty spot on its portrayal of the typical marketting department: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joMgeXLJ0lc&t=17s
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Re: Origin User Base Expands
« Reply #52 on: Today at 01:59:39 PM »
you realize that piracy on consoles is rampant and pathetically easy, right? devs go to consoles because console users have a higher propensity to pay 60$ for a shitty game. the piracy smokescreen is a ruse to justify their ruination-for-profit of my hobby.

We can actually look at those numbers as well. Illegally downloads of top 5 Wii games in 2011 adds up to about (this is from Bittorrent) 5,050,000 (the highest pirated game being Super Mario Galaxy 2 at 1,280,000). For Xbox 360 it was 3,890,000 (the highest pirated game being Gears of War 3 at 890,000). For PC? 17,710,000(with Crysis 2 having 3,920,000). I couldn't find any data for the PS3 due to piracy rates during 2011 being "too low to report", or at least that's what most of the sites say. Even if you add up the Wii and the Xbox 360, and add another 2,000,000 for the PS3 you still only get 10,940,000.*

It seems pretty obvious where the pirating is happening the most. So you look at this from a developer point of view with a new game. "Well, I could release it first on the PC; but I could be risking over 3 million illegal downloads. Or could go with the Xbox 360/PS3 and available figures show that no game for either of those systems had over 1 million illegal downloads. I think I know where I'm going!" (Since Nintendo is mostly in-house developers I didn't include the Wii figures for my "Dev's POV").

*All figures were gathered from http://torrentfreak.com/top-10-most-pirated-games-of-2011-111230/
« Last Edit: Today at 02:04:58 PM by ~SJ~ Griffin »

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Re: Origin User Base Expands
« Reply #53 on: Today at 02:09:42 PM »
If you count aftermarket sales, consoles likely have a higher piracy rate than PC.  Whenever gamestop or blockbuster sell a used game, the money goes straight in their pocket.  Yet, strangely enough, no one cares about that.  How is that any more morally acceptable in this type of argument than pure piracy?

Btw, I pirate virtually every game before I buy it.  Why?  Because I got tired of spending money on "AAA titles" (massive quote, unquote) that looked awesome and had tons of hype but turned out to be utter crap.  Developers covered the crap with cheesy marketing and horribly misrepresentative demos.  Were it not for Activision, and lately EA's, abysmal development practices I would still buy every game like I used to.  They caused my habits and I'd bet you money they've caused many others to develop similar practices.  Sure there are people out there who will never legally buy a game because they simply don't care, but there are far more that are simply tired of wasting $50 or $60 (don't even get me started on the price increase) on games that are typically crap, were quickly thrown together using as small a budget as possible, were rushed through alpha/beta testing because hey it's hard finding all those bugs, and then pushed out with barely any content so they can sell expansions and DLC.

If a game is good and worth the money, I buy it.  If it's terrible, I uninstall.  If it's good but not worth the asking price, which is usually the case, I uninstall and wait for the price to go down.

And yes, I have friends who even if I gave them a link to the torrent still wouldn't pirate the game.  There are honest people still out there, typically they're the ones who've managed to avoid EA.


you realize that piracy on consoles is rampant and pathetically easy, right? devs go to consoles because console users have a higher propensity to pay 60$ for a shitty game. the piracy smokescreen is a ruse to justify their ruination-for-profit of my hobby.
This sums it up nicely.  One thing to add, part of the reason console users don't mind spending $60 on any game that comes along is because they can always resell it later.  When you buy a PC game, you're typically stuck with it.  You think EA heavily encouraged users to register their keys on Origin to make things easier for the user?  Once that key's registered they can't sell their game to someone else.  That other person has to go buy a copy at the retail price.



Another thing to consider: Stardock has a "gamer's bill of rights" posted on their forums, and they have NO DRM on Sins of a Solar Empire.  I have sold four copies of that game AND its two expansions, purely from letting people try the game, then telling them to buy a copy when they could afford it, if they liked it.  Stardock's forums are rather full of people who tried a friend's copy for free, then bought the game for themselves.
I pirated Sins and then turned around and bought it.  When Rebellion comes out I'll be buying it as well.  It's a game I would have never puchased in a million years had I not played it first.  Everyone I know who has it also pirated it first and then bought it.  In fact, a friend of mine that virtually never buys legal copies actually went out and bought it and all the expansions.  When asked why he said it was worth every dime.

Hence my earlier comment.  When you make a product that's worth a damn and stand behind it, you're going to sell it.  That's how the market works.

but they are after second-hand sales. the recent spate of "online codes" you have to pay microsoft for to play on a p2p server system is evidence enough. besides, modern morals don't make much sense anyway, the best stance i think is to not worry about them too much.