Battlefield obscurant capability

[Redvan]

radar has little to do with smoke.  thats the reason radar was invented, to see through smoke.  so even with smoke, your radar should still pick up all contacts in the smoke, unless they're passive

[CalenLoki]

Well... in CBT there is no radar - that's the little difference...

[CHHs Cyan]

Well... in CBT there is no radar - that's the little difference...

in table top the radar is the player's observation, the ability to see the mech(model) on the board

[Flyingdebris]

well, technically there no reason to assume the smoke is just normal smoke.  Considering potential tech advances it wouldn't be much of a stretch to have particulates suspended in the smoke that can block or obfuscate most sensors.

right off the bat if the smoke has heat emanating, or conversely heat insulator particles in it, IR won't see through it easily.
and depending on whether magscan works by detection of metallic compounds or reactor signal, you could probably interfere with both with the right stuff suspended in the cloud.

[=KoS=toasterpastries]

That does make sense. I'll take smoke with or without a radar effect, I like the added tactical aspect of it. As long as they don't kill my framerate when people spam them in one place.

[Redvan]

well, technically there no reason to assume the smoke is just normal smoke.  Considering potential tech advances it wouldn't be much of a stretch to have particulates suspended in the smoke that can block or obfuscate most sensors.

right off the bat if the smoke has heat emanating, or conversely heat insulator particles in it, IR won't see through it easily.
and depending on whether magscan works by detection of metallic compounds or reactor signal, you could probably interfere with both with the right stuff suspended in the cloud.

ie:  concept behind chaff/flares...


also, no radar?  then wtf is that little circular thing at the bottom of my screen?

[Haunted]

radar has little to do with smoke.  thats the reason radar was invented, to see through smoke. 

I don't mean to be too picky.... but radar was invented by the British military to detect German aircrafts attacking england in WWII (or rather the effect we call radar was first discovered by a German scientist, first practical implementation was the British radar I mentioned) not for some tanker to see enemy tanks behind a wall of smoke.

so even with smoke, your radar should still pick up all contacts in the smoke, unless they're passive

And we are talking about a 'Battlefield obscuration capability', and as people mentioned here, there are enough ways to rationalize a 'smoke' effect that indeed does hinder radar/infrared and visual sensors.

Oh and concerning the ability of LRMs to get a lock without actually seeing the target. I think that would be fine, if radar is blocked. Since it would be quite a bit luck/prediction based.

[(TLL)Siilk]

also, no radar?  then wtf is that little circular thing at the bottom of my screen?

 Actually it's a summed up and preprocessed data from all mech sensors: IR scanner, magscan, seismodetector, e t.c. Presence of actual radar among those sensors is in question here. I hope somebody with enough BT lore knowledge could make that clear.

[CHHs Cyan]

well, technically there no reason to assume the smoke is just normal smoke.  Considering potential tech advances it wouldn't be much of a stretch to have particulates suspended in the smoke that can block or obfuscate most sensors.

right off the bat if the smoke has heat emanating, or conversely heat insulator particles in it, IR won't see through it easily.
and depending on whether magscan works by detection of metallic compounds or reactor signal, you could probably interfere with both with the right stuff suspended in the cloud.

currently i belive graphite is embedded in modren smoke grenades to trow off thermal vision

[Redvan]

radar has little to do with smoke.  thats the reason radar was invented, to see through smoke. 

I don't mean to be too picky.... but radar was invented by the British military to detect German aircrafts attacking england in WWII (or rather the effect we call radar was first discovered by a German scientist, first practical implementation was the British radar I mentioned) not for some tanker to see enemy tanks behind a wall of smoke.

The first to use radio waves to detect "the presence of distant metallic objects" was Christian Hülsmeyer, who in 1904 demonstrated the feasibility of detecting the presence of a ship in dense fog

Currently radar is used to see, and see through, obscurations like clouds, smoke, etc...  of course clutter is always a problem.  I'm sure the BT universe could figure something out to add excess clutter in their smoke, but, why bother if they can just add a jammer to the mechs, and save the money on an expendable clutter dispelled with smoke. 

but, since it's not really radar we're talkin about, I guess that doesn't matter any more.

[Flyingdebris]

because smoke is cheap. 

ecms, jammers, and other electronic warfare gear are great and all, but they require power, space, maintenance, engineering, and  tlc

smoke launchers however are relatively tiny, relatively cheap, and work with just about anything. 

[=KoS=toasterpastries]

well, technically there no reason to assume the smoke is just normal smoke.  Considering potential tech advances it wouldn't be much of a stretch to have particulates suspended in the smoke that can block or obfuscate most sensors.

right off the bat if the smoke has heat emanating, or conversely heat insulator particles in it, IR won't see through it easily.
and depending on whether magscan works by detection of metallic compounds or reactor signal, you could probably interfere with both with the right stuff suspended in the cloud.

currently i belive graphite is embedded in modren smoke grenades to trow off thermal vision

Take it from an Army vet....no. At least not in the US military. It's just smoke.

[CHHs Cyan]

im refearing to EU military practices, and possibly american special forces,
due to limited amounts of troops with in eu nations , and a stronger concentration in peace keeping rather then agressive conflict, i think is the reasoning behind their exsistance.
afaik they come standred on Leopard 2A6 tanks


A smoke screen is a release of smoke in order to mask the movement or location of military units such as infantry, tanks or ships.
It is most commonly deployed in a canister, usually as a grenade. The grenade releases a very dense cloud of smoke designed to fill the surrounding area even in light wind. They have also been used by ships.
Whereas smoke screens would originally have been used to hide movement from enemies' line of sight, modern technology means that they are now also available in new forms; they can screen in the infrared as well as visible spectrum of light to prevent detection by infrared sensors or viewers, and also available for vehicles is a superdense form used to prevent laser beams of enemy target designators or range finders on vehicles.

Infrared smokes
The proliferation of thermal imaging FLIR systems on the battlefields necessitates the use of obscurant smokes that are effectively opaque in the infrared part of electromagnetic spectrum. To achieve this, the particle size and composition of the smokes has to be adjusted. One of the approaches is using an aerosol of burning red phosphorus particles and aluminium coated glass fibres; the infrared emissions of such smoke curtains hides the weaker emissions of colder objects behind it, but the effect is only short-lived. Carbon (most often graphite) particles present in the smokes can also serve to absorb the beams of laser designators. Yet another possibility is a water fog sprayed around the vehicle; the presence of large droplets absorbs in infrared band and additionally serves as a countermeasure against radars in 94 GHz band. Other materials used as visible/infrared obscurants are micropulverized flakes of brass or graphite, particles of titanium dioxide, or terephthalic acid.
Older systems for production of infrared smoke work as generators of aerosol of dust with controlled particle size. Most contemporary vehicle-mounted systems use this approach. However the aerosol stays airborne only for a short time.
The brass particles used in some infrared smoke grenades are typically composed of 70% copper and 30% zinc. They are shaped as irregular flakes with a diameter of about 1.7 µm and thickness of 80-320 nm.
A reportedly good improvised system for production of aerosol effective even in far infrared is said to be a dry powder fire extinguisher.
Some experimental obscurants work in both infrared and millimetre wave region. They include carbon fibres, metal coated fibres or glass particles, metal microwires, particles of iron and of suitable polymers.

but im sure as a US army vet you are extermly well versed in the construction and components of smoke grenades from all over the world?

[=KoS=toasterpastries]

Ok, I'll admit I wasn't aware. My training was more about looking out for things that explode.
I have some EOD manuals and ID references, but they're mainly focused on middle eastern production.
I was taking things from a footman's perspective. Where there's definitely no copper or zinc getting shot from a smoke grenade.

Well, if that's what we have now, they would have it BT-era tech. I'm still for it.

[CalenLoki]

also, no radar?  then wtf is that little circular thing at the bottom of my screen?

 Actually it's a summed up and preprocessed data from all mech sensors: IR scanner, magscan, seismodetector, e t.c. Presence of actual radar among those sensors is in question here. I hope somebody with enough BT lore knowledge could make that clear.

My knowledge isn't huge, but I can quote from 'Maximum Tech' (p53, double-blind rules -> spotting phase -> sensor spotting):
"All sensor, with the exception of seismic sensors, must have line of sight to an enemy unit to detect it."
My interpretation is that in CBT there is no radars (don't know how in BTU). By radar I mean "something that can spot vehicles at long ranges without line of sight"