The formerly dreaded aero.

[~SJ~ Xarg Talasko]

I notice you put '....' instead of 'Done properly'.... done properly, AA wouldn't lose their place in the battlefield, like it seems you are suggesting. How much lower does 'Mech AA capability have to be? Some don't have any AA capability at all, (close range variants, I'm looking at you), and many, long range variants or not, either can't look up high enough, or the cockpit view is obstructing enough your reticle is just above the line between glass and metal, you can't see anything, and you're frantically swinging the reticle around the red box waiting for it to turn red. That's assuming your weapons don't go either side of the flying asset, or cross (X) in front of it and miss it anyway, depending on weapon location. Thats also assuming you're even able to keep the guy in your field of aim, and he hasn't just flown up and/or over you.

[Profane Arbiter]

I simply despised the airpower prior to the patch so intensely that I can't muster the will to speak in defense of it now.

I honestly don't know if it's underpowered or not ATM since I don't fly myself, but admittedly I've seen less flyboys...and haven't headbutted my monitor recently...

[SquareSphere }12thVR{]

Great great posts there Ragor!  I definitely agree with most of it.

2 or 3 experienced ASF pilots working and tandem are really hard to beat unless there's really dedicated AA.

People forget that this is a combined arms game.  Next time the TOMS are raining shells on people they should remember they really need an air power option.

I don't get how people can say that AA isn't useful against other land based units.  Didn't we have thread devoted to saying the RAC2 partisan was way to over powered, or how the Huit got it's mobility nerfed to hell cause it was too effective at everything?  Hell the Huit B packs almost as much fire power as any mech energy only variant. 

The LBX5 partisans is what's legging light mechs left and right now, not to mention it's great at hunting light/med heads to boot!

Most non ASF pilots don't know, but Sulla's got a MASSIVE speed buff in this patch.  It's that many ASF pilots couldn't get used to it and abandoned the platform.

[=]FC[=Striker]

So up 'Mech ability to destroy Aero assets
Lower AA damage vs Aero AND raise it slightly vs tanks/'Mechs
Tweak Aero armour/damage vs other assets?
(...)

...and AA have lost their role on the battlefield.
I would even suggest to lower the Mechs AA capabilty and:

AA would not have lost their role on the battlefield. You are mistaking the tags "lower" and "raise" with "nerf to hell" and "make dominant". Making it so 'Mechs can look up a bit more is all that is asked for and not that the weapons get modified to be more effective.

The call for increased damage from the AA platform against ground units means that the damage multiplier can be raised some. In particular, the AC Partisan can be shooting at a heavy 'Mech from about 500 meters and after a couple hundred rounds from each of the 4 guns you are lucky if you have dealt enough damage to be showing CT as orange. This issue may be compounded on populated servers and may not be much of an issue on a local test.

Making the AA less effective against Aeros is also not a "nerf to hell" request. Undeniably, a single AA can keep an entire team's Aero assets grounded, so modification there is needed for Aeros to have a place on the battlefield.

I really think people are too much into this "all or nothing" type mentality. Simple re-balancing could go a long way without making it so everything performs totally different in the end. Then again, the community has only seen a single additional content patch which made some drastic changes so it can be easy to see the development as an "all or nothing" type scenario.

Striker

[(TLL)Siilk]

Edit: I'm out of this thread, nothing more to say here. And thx for the 'nice' PMs XXX and YYY have sent me for mentioning my personal dislike of camping and LTs (Mr.YYY) and for having different experiences in this game (Mr.XXX).
@Mr.YYY: As I answered you via PM: The internet is not as anonymous as you may think. And a PM with so many nice&gentle words and personal stuff in hit... a lawyer would love to see it for some easy earned money for him.

Ragor, signing out of this topic

Damn, whats wrong with this world?!?

 It saddens me, that there are such XXXs and YYYs on this forum, who see other people having different opinions as a personal insult, but too afraid of moderators to speak their mind publicly. I really hope, that there are few such people here.

[Nakor]

The major problem I have with the AA tanks as is, is that they are really prevalent in game throughout the duration of a given match b/c they are effective against everything short of an assault mech.  If you don't believe me, try using them the same way you would use an lrm boat.  Go passive on a ridge behind your team mates and just start hosing the enemy team from 900M+.  If you are intelligent about it you can drop into the middle of a match and get a couple of kills and enough points to get an assault mech in about 3 minutes with one full load of ammo.  I've done it on multiple occasions, its not hard if you keep your distance and stay passive. 
That being said, as stated earlier, some of the problem with ASFs - not vtols - is the tactics and skill level of the pilots.. But IMO its too hard to utilize the nap of the earth strafing tactics necessary to evade AA while in ASF's.  The sulla is going too fast - you'll slam into something - and the shiva isn't agile enough.   Except on Extremity.. this is the only map that provides air units with large terrain features that are spaced just right for them too come out of nowhere, strike and be gone before AA can splatter them.  Ive 'had a blast with the new Hawkmoth variant on that map..  But anyway, like striker said, there are multiple issues at play here and a lot of ways they could be solved.  Personally I think that a slight damage reduction for AA weapons combined with improved variants would be a good way to make ASF and VTOL a little more effective..  I think it would be cool if the roles for aircraft were a little more specialized.  Say.. get rid of the thunderbolt and 6ErMed variants in favor of a heavier AA orientation, make the shiva primarily ground attack - it is already for the most part - with VTOLS specializing in close ground attack, more UAC5 and Srms please! I also think that it would be beneficial to give the short ranged VTOL variants ECM so as to make sneaking up on the enemy a little more feasible.. It might do too increase the agility of the Shiva, flying that thing is kind of an agonizing experience..

[ratbuddy]

It shouldn't be shocking that dedicated AA units (UAC Huey for example - try doing anything with it besides AA and maybe killing BA) can down aircraft.

The average mech has absolutely no way of shooting down an aero that plays smart (annoying?) and approaches from directly overhead, drops bombs, and climbs back up. Simply can't hit them at all unless they screw up and fly into your limited vertical arc. There's gotta be a counter to that, or fbombs would rule the game. I also don't think any aero or VTOL should have enough armor to survive long enough on direct approach to drop bombs on an AA unit. Have your ground based buddies take out the AA if you want to fly that bad.

[phobeste]

I do agree that the AA tanks may have a little TOO much usefulness - but that's only if you really consider them as specifically AA tanks (and yes, I know that the Partisan is listed as an AA tank). What they're good at is shooting agile units with little armor - like aeros and vtols but ALSO like light mechs. They're still not any more useful against a really powerful unit than equivalent cbills in light mech.

Also, am I the only one who thinks that the problem with aeros is that they're really really hard to pilot not using a joystick? I'm not sure what it is, maybe it's my sensitivity. But whenever I'm flying with a mouse I'm thinking "good god what I wouldn't give for a joystick right now!" And I don't think it's true of ALL aircraft flying games because I haven't really had that thought when, say, flying a plane in a Battlefield game. Maybe it's just the division between what the keyboard does and what the mouse does.

[Redvan]

i only use mouse.  probably your sensitivity.

[(TLL)Siilk]

i only use mouse.  probably your sensitivity.

 I think it's more of a flying aero after getting used to controlling mech with a mouse. Aero seems too unstable after slow and unresponsive mech torso. But if you give it a week or so, controlling aero with a mouse wouldn't be a problem.

[phobeste]

i only use mouse.  probably your sensitivity.

 I think it's more of a flying aero after getting used to controlling mech with a mouse. Aero seems too unstable after slow and unresponsive mech torso. But if you give it a week or so, controlling aero with a mouse wouldn't be a problem.

Okay, thank you. But my other point stands. Mechs are able to counter other mechs as well as tanks, and generally aren't very good against aeros. Aeros are either able to counter mechs and the non-AC tanks and not great against AC tanks or other aeros or able to counter... well, other aeros and nothing else. Non-AC tanks (i.e. not really AA-specialized tanks) are able to counter other mechs and tanks and not really aeros. AA tanks are able to counter aeros/vtols and light tanks or mechs. I fail to see where the problem is, really - they seem pretty balanced. If AA tanks (and here I do just mean the Partisan Prime, whichever Huit it is that has the CUACs, the AC Oro, and the RAC5 Demolisher) were really ONLY useful against aero, perhaps by limiting how far "down" they can look even further, then they've been really significantly nerfed by making them useful against exactly one other type of unit, which is by far the least-often fielded.

[Brainwright]

I believe the greatest problem with aerospace is that they're able to pull turns at speeds that would turn most pilots into mush.

I've had aerospace turn about and attack me over and over within a three hundred meter circle around my mech.  Seriously, that shouldn't be happening.

[SquareSphere }12thVR{]

I don't know what to think about this thread, sometimes it's ASF need a buff cause no one can fly them.  Then I see post saying they're still OP :p.

[MercenaryMuffin]

As a dedicated jet whore in pretty much any game that allows me to fly, I used to love flying the Aeros in MWLL. Until the new build came out. Now the Aeros have one huge factor that destroys any will to fly for me: They can't pull up for beans. Formerly easy strafing runs are now nearly impossible, thanks to the fact that it's so hard to pull up. It feels like I'm controlling a cargo plane, not a nimble little fighter.

[=KH=Dimachaerus]

Welp, I've read through the thread (as requested by my flying-best-buddy Nakor).

Have to agree that the range on AC's is part of the problem, damp down the range, and add a more steep damage dropoff and that will be fixed. However: The RAC partisan is INSTANT death for any air vehicle within 800m. Spent several rounds insta-hosing anything that moved in the sky. This is not balanced.

I've also noticed the sluggish climb speed of fighters now. Flight seems smoother overall but the loss of climbing power is particularly troubling when you're pulling up from a strafing run.

PS: Small side note to people saying Mechs cannot kill air. Take a mech with jumpjets, face the air asset, then jump up and backwards. That's just one of the tricks you can pull to get an angle. Also, LBX20's... make mincemeat of ANY air unit, instantly, if in range.