The formerly dreaded aero.

[(TLL)Siilk]

 Any mech with long range weapons could engage air assets effectively, if it has enough distance between it and it's target. Spreading forces so that mechs could cover each other and placing AA units in the middle gives you strong anti-air formation for a balanced team.
 
 And don't forget, that Zeuses scenario is only makes sense for solaris arena. If you have a gamemod with some objectives, other than "deal as much damage to the enemy as possible", team going all-aero could hardly accomplish much.

[MatthewPryde]

I do miss seeing air support though, I myself have too much trouble piloting an aircraft with my 2x joystick setup.

[Draks]

Personally, I think Aerospace does need a buff now.  The ERMBL is pretty much useless - not that it was the greatest thing before the patch but it was at least decent.  I don't believe they need drastic changes from their current state but rather more of a middle ground of what used to be as someone else stated.  The new firebomb targeting does allow pilots to stay higher up instead of dive bombing but doing so is not perfectly accurate but it is the price of safety. 

I preferred the old Aerospace controls and it seems like it handles far more awkwardly than before, however, I haven't bothered to play air much after the patch.  Death is now fairly rare from an Aero. I've been killed only once by an aircraft since the patch and generally kill any within a couple seconds if I see them.  Some nice free cash though.

Stealth is definitely very important now for any Aerospace pilot.

[Askis]

A few days ago, I was playing a match on Inferno, where the enemy team had three VTOLs up in the air.
They were annoying me, so I bought a Partisan Prime.
I'm pretty sure the first two didn't even notice they were being shot at before they exploded, it took about a second of fire (all 4 ACs in one group on chainfire) for each at ~1200m distance.
The third had probably seen his comrades go up in smoke, he was banking and dodging around, so I had to lead him some.
When he blew, he was outside of my radar range, probably somewhere around 1300-1400m.

All this from a weapon that's supposed to have it's max range at 800m.

Yeah, I'd say AA is a bit too effective as of 0.2.0

[7.[WD]Ragor]

My two cents to the topic (as I am a very experienced AA player / Part Prime or Huit A):

#1 The Aeros:
Had the same feeling over the last weeks with v0.2.0, they are too easy to shoot down.
IMO thats the pilots fault! (sorry)
I struggled over an experienced player some games ago, he really knew to fly and how to use his airborn weapon platform in the right way. He had no lag shield at all to save him, but he was damn good with evading, nearly couldn't hit him, just brought him down one time. And he still made his attacks while evading! Damn impressive, flyboy Toth!

Most of the Aeros go out too overconfident. In v0.1.0 they had been nearly untouchable, just fly high and hit all you see. This doesn't work anymore (for the sake of the fun for the rest of the players!). And until there is a AA on the field, the Aeros just destroy/damage badly all mechs they can find, only get hit by lucky shots.

When 2 Aeros are out there (and know what they are doing), flying formation and stay passive until their attack dive, hard time to get them and they even crush a 3xAA defense line! (when you see Alienmind and Killer-Bee on the server in Aeros, just go to spectator mode and watch them. Really impressive to watch.)
One Aero, easy kill. One Aero on active, just a present. One Aero flying straight... instant death.

Some pilots now start to do real piloting, terrain following on low altitude on passiv with full speed. Impossible to shoot down unless you get one lucky salvo.

#2 The Vtols:
 If they fly high, they are dead. If they are using ground cover (or the cover of an assault mech) and do their support role -> nearly invulnerable.
Fly/hover high and active and straight... instant death.

And the Vtols got one major problem: When they get hit by AC-5, they hear no sound, nor they have cockpit shaking -> they don't recognize they are under fire. (Because of that an experienced AA-Gunner always aims for their tail, leading the bullet stream from the back to the Vtol -> any passing by bullets in front warns the pilot)

#3 The AA-Tanks:
Since they are nearly useless against everything else, AAs are just the scissor where the Flyboys are the paper (mechs the stone).

And yes, the AC-5 is overpowered. But not with the range, the range is fine. But there should be a higher damage drop for (U)AC-2/5 after their listed max (effectiv) range.
The only thing i can try when I got found by a mech (because I was busy with the flyboys and couldn't evade early) is to shoot of one or two of his weapons to weaken him, then I'm dead. And to evade with an Huit A, forget it. Unbelievable slow and a weak armor (for its price&size), i suppose a LT could overtake me.
And keep in mind, the AAs got very limited ammo (especially the RAC-2 and UAC-5 variants), no good for a long fight.
Why not use the energy weapon AAs? Thx to the lag shield of many flyboys and the limited range they are nearly useless IMO. When you hit something, fine, fast kill. But this 'when' is the problem. Take enough cigarettes with you for the rest of the match...
And I too often killed myself in an Huit with the LPL due to overheating... 

-> Everybody should learn different tactics with his preferred weapon platform. If you fail with yours, train more, try something new. Not everything is just imba. The Aeros in this game are no B2-Bombers, just flying high, being untouchable and destroying all on sight...
'Hey, I play exclusivly airborn stuff, I get killed all the time, AA is overpowered.' Yes... sure... Be honest to yourself: Did you really change your B2-style to something useful? (sorry, I don't want to insult anyone, but thats how I see it. And I know many (successull) flyboys who share my opinion.)

EDIT: I always read the ballistic weapons have a max range of 'bla bla'. Yes, thats their effective range! Afterwards the damage drops rapidly. Or do you try to tell me the bullets should magically disappear?!?

[7.[WD]Ragor]

A few days ago, I was playing a match on Inferno, where the enemy team had three VTOLs up in the air.
They were annoying me, so I bought a Partisan Prime.
I'm pretty sure the first two didn't even notice they were being shot at before they exploded, it took about a second of fire (all 4 ACs in one group on chainfire) for each at ~1200m distance.
(...)

Sorry, don't believe it. Yes, they don't recognize when they get hit, thats true. But 1 sec is not possible. A Hawkmoth takes much more fire. I already tested it with a friend of mine how long it takes on which range etc. If the Hawkmoth-pilot was lazy enough just to hover or move straight, ok, you bring ~80% of the bullet-stream (thx to spread) into the target. But still... will take more than 1 sec, at least 3-4s. And when he starts evading then you are really lucky/good if you bring in ~20%. And keep in mind the overheating when firing. (chainfire is only with UAC-5 fine, the AC-5 makes far to less damage then and spreads even more)

[~SJ~MausGMR]

I'll be honest, I find Aerospace fighters abit of a joke to kill in a mech these days. I tend to take mechs with a reasonable Beam loadout, ER larges usually. The 800m range and fairly slow speed of aeros, coupled with a reasonable side to side traverse speed and very good vertical traverse speed on most mechs, aeros are a piece of cake to drop with lasers, low calibre ac's, and machine guns.

VTOL's are a pain in the ass, but if you team has a clue they will make sure to shoot down any aeros harassing an enemy mech from above. Yes the AC partisans tear vtols to shit, i've done it myself, if your accurate they explode incredibly quickly, same with aerospace fighters, a pair of MG's can tear an aero apart surprisingly quickly.

Overall I think aero's need a speed bost, they still fly too slow for my liking, as they are just too damned easy to hit. I should have trouble tracking the thing at 400-600m, it shouldnt be a garaunteed kill. Also the simple flight mechanics make movement too predictable and the planes seem sluggish in the air. Higher ceiling, cloud cover, and a faster climb speed would probably help these things. I wouldnt complain if they got an armour boost either tbh, just to help their survivability abit.

[Askis]

Sorry, don't believe it. Yes, they don't recognize when they get hit, thats true. But 1 sec is not possible. A Hawkmoth takes much more fire. I already tested it with a friend of mine how long it takes on which range etc. If the Hawkmoth-pilot was lazy enough just to hover or move straight, ok, you bring ~80% of the bullet-stream (thx to spread) into the target. But still... will take more than 1 sec, at least 3-4s. And when he starts moving then you are good if you bring in ~20%. And keep in mind the overheating when firing. (chainfire is only with UAC-5 fine, the AC-5 makes far to less damage then and spreads even more)

To clarify, the first to were just hovering in place, firing LRMs, I might have hit them from the side (engine damage), not sure anymore.
Next time I get a Partisan Prime, I'll record it.

And four AC5s in chainfire are like one big MG of death, you don't overheat, the only spread is from the position of the guns and leading is easier as you send one big stream of bullets in the air instead of four shots with little pauses in between.
Imho far better for AA use than linkfire, but to each his own.

[=KoS= Eldragon]

I Agree with Ragor's assessment 100%. Only change needed is to increase the damage dropoff of the UAC5 a bit.

... cloud cover...

That would help Aero a lot, and should be easy to implement as a particle effect floating in the sky. If all maps had some cloud cover here and there, air combat would be far more interesting, and the UAC5s would probably be fine as-is.

[Redvan]

yes, aeros are too easy to kill.  They were fun last patch.  I dont even bother any more this patch.  RAC will chew them apart in about 2 seconds like the OP said.

The Sulla Prime and A aren't worth a shit now because they are primarily AA, and with the increased speed, you're gonna have a harder time hitting ground targets with them when there are no enemy aeros up.  Might as well just screw those two variants and buy an easy ass AA tank (fuk, my scat prime got legged in 2 seconds from a partisan yesterday, bit OP imo).

Good thing about the latest patch:  Increased speed = get out of mechs firing range faster.  I could rape an aero in a mech any time before this patch.  No idea why people had a problem with it.  But now, it's quite a bit harder.


also PLEASE stop referring to VTOLs as AEROs.  They are different, and need to be treated as such, or it'll just lead to alot of confusion.

[(TLL) Zeh]

I'm all for increasing Aero survivability OUTSIDE of AA range.  Increasing damage drop-off for out-of-range attacks should be enough of a fix IMO.  If an Aero steps in an area covered by AA, his main focus should be getting out, not attacking.  AA is and should be a HARD counter to any flying unit, it's just a BIT too powerful now.  If we go back to Aeros and VTOLs actively engaging AA units without superior numbers, that's much worse, as unchecked air can be a nightmare, unchecked AA is just like another mech on the battlefield.

[7.[WD]Ragor]

(...)
(fuk, my scat prime got legged in 2 seconds from a partisan yesterday, bit OP imo).
(...)

I'm really no fan of disagreeing other users. But... sorry, no way this could have happened. For sure something else hit your leg as well (perhaps some lasers while the Parti was firing?) or your leg was already damaged badly and your damage display hadn't updated correctly.

The AC-5 does so less damage vs Mechs. To cripple the poorly armored AC-20 off the arm of an Osiris takes about 5-6 seconds with all 4 AC-5 firing and hitting, afterwards the AC-5 are close to overheat.

BTW: I only use chainfire with the Huit's UAC-5, never unload my Parti set to chainfire, too less effective.

AC-5 is fine versus light armor (all flying stuff, Harrasser and BA). Or for shooting long range for a sandpaper effect on mechs. But never a good choice to fight a mech one on one. Not even with 4 of them like the Parti Prime got. And I suppose I know how to aim on special parts as I practise the tanks since ~one week a lot, already spent ~30h training with them. And the Huits armour is a joke, only the Demolisher is a real tank IMO (and two IS-gauss are a good choice to shoot down low approaching Aeros. You just need 2 to 3 hits.)

@all the B2-style flyboys: I suppose you agree that using one Mech vs the whole enemy team is a bad idea. But flying high, where everybody sees you (and is annoyed by the Aero) and shoots at you is something different then challenging the whole enemy on your own?!?
Often I join a server, my team is in defense and shot into parts just because one enemy is flying while the rest of them is keeping my team busy with good old mech ground attacks (the honest way, you know, hairs and stuff  ) or with lame LRM-camping (or even worse: LT-shit).
-> I get my AA, shoot him down one or two times... what happens? He approaches me directly spawn after spawn, always with the same result. And then? He quits. Or changes the team to my side. Or starts complaining about 'imba AA' and 'no fun anymore'. Or just gets a mech and hunts me exclusivly to polish his e-penis. (chat à la 'yeah, better then you, learn to play the game you noob' and stuff like that. Right, i agree. Because crushing a scissor with a rock is skill... I never say that I am skilled. Just experienced enough to use the right tool. -Check my signature.- )


Edit: (got posted while I was typing my nonsense above)

I'm all for increasing Aero survivability OUTSIDE of AA range.  Increasing damage drop-off for out-of-range attacks should be enough of a fix IMO.  If an Aero steps in an area covered by AA, his main focus should be getting out, not attacking.  AA is and should be a HARD counter to any flying unit, it's just a BIT too powerful now.  If we go back to Aeros and VTOLs actively engaging AA units without superior numbers, that's much worse, as unchecked air can be a nightmare, unchecked AA is just like another mech on the battlefield.

QFT

Yes, can't agree more like atm!

[=]FC[=Striker]

There are really multiple balance issues here. 'Mechs are virtually useless against the Aeros if they are flown properly. The AA is very effective against Aeros, but is ultimately worthless against all other assets. Here is where the huge balance issue comes in, which is that the Aeros are effective against EVERY other asset.

It is agreeable that the AA is too effective right now, but there is more that needs to change than an AA nerf. 'Mechs in particular need to have a better chance at taking out the Aeros and the AA needs to be more effective against ground units. I know making AA effective against ground units goes against the grain a bit, but the simple fact is that while an AA is on the field they may deter Aeros from taking flight. This means that the Aero pilot has jumped into a ground asset, and the person in the AA is now worthless on the battlefield. Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying an AA platform should take out ground units as fast as other ground units can, but they need to be allowed to be somewhat productive. Currently, both the primary AA Partisans can burn through nearly all of their ammo into a stationary medium or heavy 'Mech and have little to no effect. That is not balance.

Striker

[~SJ~ Xarg Talasko]

So up 'Mech ability to destroy Aero assets
Lower AA damage vs Aero AND raise it slightly vs tanks/'Mechs
Tweak Aero armour/damage vs other assets?

Done properly, I'd back that.

[7.[WD]Ragor]

So up 'Mech ability to destroy Aero assets
Lower AA damage vs Aero AND raise it slightly vs tanks/'Mechs
Tweak Aero armour/damage vs other assets?
(...)

...and AA have lost their role on the battlefield.
I would even suggest to lower the Mechs AA capabilty and:

I'm all for increasing Aero survivability OUTSIDE of AA range.  Increasing damage drop-off for out-of-range attacks should be enough of a fix IMO.  If an Aero steps in an area covered by AA, his main focus should be getting out, not attacking.  AA is and should be a HARD counter to any flying unit, it's just a BIT too powerful now.  If we go back to Aeros and VTOLs actively engaging AA units without superior numbers, that's much worse, as unchecked air can be a nightmare, unchecked AA is just like another mech on the battlefield.

QFT

Yes, can't agree more like atm!

Edit: I'm out of this thread, nothing more to say here. And thx for the 'nice' PMs XXX and YYY have sent me for mentioning my personal dislike of camping and LTs (Mr.YYY) and for having different experiences in this game (Mr.XXX).
@Mr.YYY: As I answered you via PM: The internet is not as anonymous as you may think. And a PM with so many nice&gentle words and personal stuff in hit... a lawyer would love to see it for some easy earned money for him.

Ragor, signing out of this topic

Damn, whats wrong with this world?!?