Alternative Promotion system

[Liberius]

As I cruise through these forums, I see more and more posts about the current promotion/scoring system being flawed.

I don't think it is really flawed, so much as it is an asset bounty system. In a game in which the point is to test your assets against someone else's assets, an asset bounty system is entirely appropriate. This usually applies best to games of strategy(not tactics), in which the outcome of the battle is pretty much decided before the battle begins and the controller cannot micromanage units.

However, Mechwarrior is a game of skill and tactics. Therefore, I don't believe an asset bounty system alone is appropriate for MWLL. The bounty system should be based on the skill of the pilots engaged in combat, reflected by their points totals and rank.

It seems nonsensical that, as a Galaxy Commander, I can go out in a Mad Cat II and annihilate light and medium 'Mechs piloted by cadets and warriors and garner huge amounts of cbills and xp with little or no threat to me. There is no honor in this, and you shouldn't get fast tracked for a promotion for gunning down less skilled pilots, as that says nothing about your own skill.

Therefore, I think the amount of XP/cbills we get for a kill should be pegged to the rank of the person we kill, not to the asset they are piloting. This is not to say that asset bounties should be removed. a cadet in a Timberwolf is more dangerous than a cadet in a uller. However, I think assets should be given less weight than rank. Since assets would still determine a minor share of the bounty on a player, killing a skilled BA player would garner you a lot of money, but not near as much as killing a 'Mech. (Since I don't know if the devs can tell the game to understand the difference between players that have piloted an asset that life and those who have not piloted an asset in that round, I will assume they can't.)

Obviously, killing a Khan would earn you the most XP/Cbills, and killing a cadet wouldn't earn you much.

This change to the system would have the following benefits:

1) Reduce incentive for players hoarding around driver-less enemy 'Mechs so they can get the final shot on it for a big payoff.
2) Rewards the player that actually kills the pilot.
3) Removes the problem of enemies getting a "double payoff" for destroying your 'Mech after you bail, and then destroying the 'Mech you stole from them in the heat of combat.
4) Will somewhat shift players attention from destroying big targets(like the Atlas) to destroying 'Mechs piloted by skilled pilots.*
4a) This will, in-turn, make the game more difficult for skilled pilots and thus, more rewarding/fun.

*I regularly check the scoreboard to see who is my biggest threat on the enemy team. Therefore, if I catch their attention on the field I make sure I'm in shape to fight, if not, I run, or move myself into the most advantageous position I can get in.

Please post your thoughts on this subject. I know the idea is a bit rough, especially when accounting for BA, but I think this system is superior to the one currently in place.

[Killer-Bee]

....
It seems nonsensical that, as a Galaxy Commander, I can go out in a Mad Cat II and annihilate light and medium 'Mechs piloted by cadets and warriors and garner huge amounts of cbills and xp with little or no threat to me. There is no honor in this, and you shouldn't get fast tracked for a promotion for gunning down less skilled pilots, as that says nothing about your own skill.
....
Therefore, I think the amount of XP/cbills we get for a kill should be pegged to the rank of the person we kill, not to the asset they are piloting. This is not to say that asset bounties should be removed. a cadet in a Timberwolf is more dangerous than a cadet in a uller. However, I think assets should be given less weight than rank. Since assets would still determine a minor share of the bounty on a player, killing a skilled BA player would garner you a lot of money, but not near as much as killing a 'Mech. (Since I don't know if the devs can tell the game to understand the difference between players that have piloted an asset that life and those who have not piloted an asset in that round, I will assume they can't.)


Obviously, killing a Khan would earn you the most XP/Cbills, and killing a cadet wouldn't earn you much.

This change to the system would have the following benefits:

1) Reduce incentive for players hoarding around driver-less enemy 'Mechs so they can get the final shot on it for a big payoff.
2) Rewards the player that actually kills the pilot.
3) Removes the problem of enemies getting a "double payoff" for destroying your 'Mech after you bail, and then destroying the 'Mech you stole from them in the heat of combat.
4) Will somewhat shift players attention from destroying big targets(like the Atlas) to destroying 'Mechs piloted by skilled pilots.*
4a) This will, in-turn, make the game more difficult for skilled pilots and thus, more rewarding/fun.

*I regularly check the scoreboard to see who is my biggest threat on the enemy team. Therefore, if I catch their attention on the field I make sure I'm in shape to fight, if not, I run, or move myself into the most advantageous position I can get in.

Please post your thoughts on this subject. I know the idea is a bit rough, especially when accounting for BA, but I think this system is superior to the one currently in place.

comments:
neither rank nor the mech shows which skills or experience you have on a public server where anyone can join any second and dropped by the game stability at any point. granted as a match progresses it starts to reflect more on the scoreboard if players dont join/leave but mech choice rather depends on which enemy your hunting in any case. i go out often in an osiris b or something equal while i could already afford mad cats etc. just to hunt down slow moving heavy mechs and boats. beat sticks aka mad cat 2 from your example were my prey more than once. even if they are heavier as you describe it the threat factor was quite the other way around. this is also the case if i join late in the game being only a warrior with no real other choice.
also it depends much more on variants rather than weight or player rank. for example a relatively heavy lrm vulture has little to counter when a fast but light mech is in capable hands.


when a experienced high skill player joins late in the game he just runs around in a light unit too while being a lot more of a threat than any heavy mech/high rank that just runs around because the player has amassed enough money in a long match.  by earning that tiny bit he gained each time before he died..
i saw a lot of times khans that had a worse K/D than GC and so on.

also if the guy of your example manages to get a mad cat 2 so soon that he only has light mechs as enemies and can finish them without those posing a threat to him he really HAS earned those cbills he gets by killing of a greater force in numbers already^^
also when you say that the guy in a mad cat 2 gets fast tracked for a promotion by killing off a lot of light mechs... well .. i really cant see your example thru.. what does he get fast tracked to. it seems he already can afford everything he could wish for.

current system:
seeing that it is in fact very well balanced that an experienced player in a light mech can get much money by shooting down armor plate after armor plate wearing down his enemy in great effort to finally get his kill from that mad cat 2 no matter the rank.
while on the other hand doesnt get that much money by killing off another light unit relatively quickly if high ranked or not.
the current system reflects what good he has done for the team much more accurately as if he would get as much money for a heavy mad cat kill as for a light osiris like your proposing. depending on their game ranks.
same goes for ba. a galaxy commander ba isnt necessarily better than a warrior ba seeing that you can join in a match any time you like.
also currently a newbie can get points exactly counting for every damage he does no matter what enemy he hits. this is of course easier to understand and grasp than having a newbie learn the ranks and only go after high priority targets.


your benefits:
1 as you said its still linked to what asset your shooting at so they still would get money from shooting assets without pilots. so this wouldnt be reduced
2 cant see how your change would affect the outcome of the last shot fired at the enemy being the killshot as i couldnt read anything regarding that
3 i really dont understand how "destroying your 'Mech after you bail, and then destroying the 'Mech you stole from them in the heat of combat" works. or what double payoff means. but if you mean killing the ejected ba and then killing the unpiloted mech see point 1
4 as explained above. players joining late in the game... also shifting players attention away from assault class mechs doesnt seem like a good idea to me altho i dont understand how that would be accomplished with ur system in any case
4a dont think it would make more fun for any player if they would be forced to hunt high skilled people no matter where they are and in which asset they are in while assault class mechs with nub pilots come down on my hangar without being opposed because you cant get as much money of them.

downsides:
one critical detail would be at the start of the level where you would gain very little money since all your enemies are warriors in either case.
if a warrior desides at the start of the game to deathlevel up to a mad cat you should get money for every armor point your wearing that beast down no matter who pilots it.
which is exactly what the current system does.

one of the disadvantages that comes to my mind at first tho is that high rank players would quickly adapt and switch to staying way behind firing only long range weapons and giving their money away to low ranks as soon as they rank up. sending in their low rank peasents as they wouldnt give the enemy credits worth mentioning no matter which asset they are in.



hopefully no offense taken on your part. none meant while writing even if it sounds a little rough while reading it again^^

[Liberius]

Response Summary

I think player skill is better reflected through a player's rank, and not what they are piloting; therefore their rank should be a part of the bounty equation.

If I understand Killer-Bee's logic, he believes that Assets strongly represent a player's threat; therefore the current system is mostly fine.
(if i got that wrong KB, please comment and I'll edit it.)

tl;dr warning: Only read past this point if you require clarifications/explanations or references for your own posts...Otherwise, You are risking your sanity

comments:
neither rank nor the mech shows which skills or experience you have on a public server where anyone can join any second and dropped by the game stability at any point. granted as a match progresses it starts to reflect more on the scoreboard if players dont join/leave but mech choice rather depends on which enemy your hunting in any case. i go out often in an osiris b or something equal while i could already afford mad cats etc. just to hunt down slow moving heavy mechs and boats. beat sticks aka mad cat 2 from your example were my prey more than once. even if they are heavier as you describe it the threat factor was quite the other way around. this is also the case if i join late in the game being only a warrior with no real other choice.
also it depends much more on variants rather than weight or player rank. for example a relatively heavy lrm vulture has little to counter when a fast but light mech is in capable hands.

I have to disagree, as I consistently see the same people in the top ranks. Sure, there are a few lucky ones out there that make it to SCL or GC every once in a while. When I first started playing, I never made it past Warrior. Now, I'm having a bad match if I'm not at least a SCL within 30 minutes of joining. I'm not tooting my own horn, but I think I'm a relatively skilled pilot, though I'm aware there are much better players out there.

Secondly, The server saves your XP if you crash. As many times as I've crashed, it's only lost my XP once.

when a experienced high skill player joins late in the game he just runs around in a light unit too while being a lot more of a threat than any heavy mech/high rank that just runs around because the player has amassed enough money in a long match.  by earning that tiny bit he gained each time before he died..
i saw a lot of times khans that had a worse K/D than GC and so on.

also if the guy of your example manages to get a mad cat 2 so soon that he only has light mechs as enemies and can finish them without those posing a threat to him he really HAS earned those cbills he gets by killing of a greater force in numbers already^^
also when you say that the guy in a mad cat 2 gets fast tracked for a promotion by killing off a lot of light mechs... well .. i really cant see your example thru.. what does he get fast tracked to. it seems he already can afford everything he could wish for.

For a skilled player, it's not incredibly hard to gun down a lot of light/medium 'Mechs in a Vulture A, Hollander A, or a Mad Cat II, especially if you are aiming for 'Mech's that are already damaged. The point is, no, in the hands of a skilled pilot, any 'Mech/vehicle can out match a reasonable number of enemy 'Mechs of a lesser weight class.

Almost every time I'm on a server, there are SCMs and Warriors asking for money to buy heavy/assault 'Mechs within 15 minutes of the start of the match. I used the Mad Cat II as an example b/c it's the most extreme case. In most cases, it's people asking for money to buy a Vulture A, or a Thanatos. If they are skilled in these 'Mechs then they pose a serious threat. If they are not, a skilled light 'Mech pilot or a swarm of unskilled light 'Mech pilots will tear them up.

Skills, such as knowing when to run passive, remembering your gear load-out, knowing how to effectively use your jump jets in combat, steering by radar while your torso is at 180 degrees shooting at the guy circling you, while watching your heat, and glancing around for other threats etc. make all the difference in a pilot's survivability.

current system:
seeing that it is in fact very well balanced that an experienced player in a light mech can get much money by shooting down armor plate after armor plate wearing down his enemy in great effort to finally get his kill from that mad cat 2 no matter the rank.
while on the other hand doesnt get that much money by killing off another light unit relatively quickly if high ranked or not.
the current system reflects what good he has done for the team much more accurately as if he would get as much money for a heavy mad cat kill as for a light osiris like your proposing. depending on their game ranks.
same goes for ba. a galaxy commander ba isnt necessarily better than a warrior ba seeing that you can join in a match any time you like.
also currently a newbie can get points exactly counting for every damage he does no matter what enemy he hits. this is of course easier to understand and grasp than having a newbie learn the ranks and only go after high priority targets.

I agree, and that's why I said assets should remain part of the calculation, but shouldn't be the entire calculation. Killing an unskilled Mad Cat II Prime in a SCat B is fun, but doesn't present an enormous challenge to a skilled SCat B pilot.

Yes, there is some rock-paper-scissors involved here, but the majority of the outcomes rely on skill, not on what you bring to the field. We could argue all day about how different assets counter others, but my argument is that skill is not being given the weight it deserves. An extreme example: An LRM Puma should run away as fast as possible if bushwhacker gets on its butt, but I've seen an LRM puma point blank a bushwhacker and kill it on multiple occasions(This happened to me in a warhammer B once). A more likely example is that of an Awesome going up against a SCat B. Looking at the assets, the Awesome should win rather handily. However, Awesomes piloted by unskilled players make easy prey for a SCat B that uses the terrain effectively, and allows the Awesome pilot to overheat himself in a panic when the Scat starts using its LBX20 on the Awesome's backside.

However, I think it is kind of ridiculous you get what?...3k creds for killing the BA that was just in the cockpit of an Atlas, all the while someone gets a good 35k for blowing the derelict Atlas up.

your benefits:
1 as you said its still linked to what asset your shooting at so they still would get money from shooting assets without pilots. so this wouldnt be reduced

what? I never said killing a derelict asset should award you any points.

2 cant see how your change would affect the outcome of the last shot fired at the enemy being the killshot as i couldnt read anything regarding that

I meant the player that kills the BA that ejected from a damaged asset. The vast majority of the time I fight a skilled player they will eject at the last moment. When I kill them in their BA, I get some 3-5k creds as opposed to the guy that sees "no driver" on his HUD and races over to destroy the derelict asset for an easy 20-30k.

3 i really dont understand how "destroying your 'Mech after you bail, and then destroying the 'Mech you stole from them in the heat of combat" works. or what double payoff means. but if you mean killing the ejected ba and then killing the unpiloted mech see point 1

Imagine a situation in which you are in a Thanatos, and you go up against an enemy Vulture. The Vulture has just forced one of your allies in a Warhammer to eject. Just as you are about to finish the Vulture, the pilot ejects. You finish the Vulture...$$$cha-ching$$$...but the pilot flies over to the, previously friendly, derelict Warhammer and hops in...and *BAM* you put a Heavy Gauss in its torso and it blows up...$$$cha-ching$$$. So you get points for killing 2 'Mechs(1 enemy and 1 previously friendly) but you really only removed one pilot from the field.

4 as explained above. players joining late in the game... also shifting players attention away from assault class mechs doesnt seem like a good idea to me altho i dont understand how that would be accomplished with ur system in any case
4a dont think it would make more fun for any player if they would be forced to hunt high skilled people no matter where they are and in which asset they are in while assault class mechs with nub pilots come down on my hangar without being opposed because you cant get as much money of them.

The current response to an Atlas is "OMGWTFBBQ an Atlas!!! Quick everyone swarm it!" In most cases, Atlases(is that the correct plural? lol) are used incorrectly, marching out into the middle of the field and getting annihilated. Used by a skilled player though, an Atlas is a serious threat. Like I said before, a 'Mech is only a threat if the pilot knows what he is piloting.

downsides:
one critical detail would be at the start of the level where you would gain very little money since all your enemies are warriors in either case.

Would this not be an advantage though? A major complaint about the current system is that not enough time is spent in the Light/Medium 'Mechs. A slower progression through a round would be more interesting. There are also plenty of "cheap" models of heavier 'Mechs, if people don't care for the light stuff.

if a warrior desides at the start of the game to deathlevel up to a mad cat you should get money for every armor point your wearing that beast down no matter who pilots it.
which is exactly what the current system does.

could you explain this "deathlevel" up to me? I'm not familiar with it or perhaps I don't know it by that name.

one of the disadvantages that comes to my mind at first tho is that high rank players would quickly adapt and switch to staying way behind firing only long range weapons and giving their money away to low ranks as soon as they rank up. sending in their low rank peasents as they wouldnt give the enemy credits worth mentioning no matter which asset they are in.

Yes, you are right. This could present a problem to this system.

hopefully no offense taken on your part. none meant while writing even if it sounds a little rough while reading it again^^

none taken. 

  (wow that is a long post)

[Killer-Bee]

assets/variants do represent a players threat to some degree in my opinion yes.
but i also think that only taking rank into account is not a good way to determine a players skill in a public server where everyone can join or get disconnected at any point in the game.
especially if using the current rank system where for example players with negative K/D get sometimes placed before one with a positive one.
if the rank system is updated in the future to be using stored values carrying over between rounds or numbers like players lost vehicles, accuracy, weapons used and whatnot it would be more accurate. but it still wouldnt reflect anything anymore as soon as a new experienced highskill player joins and gets the warrior rank.



on to quotes:

...Killing an unskilled Mad Cat II Prime in a SCat B is fun, but doesn't present an enormous challenge to a skilled SCat B pilot. ...

agreed to disagree.
i think it does present a challange to wear a madcatIIs armor down to 0 with a scatbs weaponry and should be rewarded as it is now.

Killer-Bee
your benefits:
1 as you said its still linked to what asset your shooting at so they still would get money from shooting assets without pilots. so this wouldnt be reduced

Liberius:
what? I never said killing a derelict asset should award you any points.

so you say there should be less to none profit when shooting a mech without pilot? i would agree to that to some degree but sry couldnt read that anywhere in your post. only found that you stated that there should still be type of assets factored in no matter by which rank it was piloted.

I meant the player that kills the BA that ejected from a damaged asset. The vast majority of the time I fight a skilled player they will eject at the last moment. When I kill them in their BA, I get some 3-5k creds as opposed to the guy that sees "no driver" on his HUD and races over to destroy the derelict asset for an easy 20-30k.

if you wear an enemy mech down to the point where a skilled pilot ejects and you get that kill you already earned a lot more than 3-5k. after all currently your rewarded by damage you do.
in any case im not too sure about the 20-30k figure if someone would really race to the nearly wrecked mech before you can shoot at it again as you describe it.
but overall i too think that its a problem that ppl favor unpiloted vehicles as targets. but i dont see how your system should prevent that. players that try to get easy money instead of trying to shoot some high skilled dude will still do that.

Imagine a situation in which you are in a Thanatos, and you go up against an enemy Vulture. The Vulture has just forced one of your allies in a Warhammer to eject. Just as you are about to finish the Vulture, the pilot ejects. You finish the Vulture...$$$cha-ching$$$...but the pilot flies over to the, previously friendly, derelict Warhammer and hops in...and *BAM* you put a Heavy Gauss in its torso and it blows up...$$$cha-ching$$$. So you get points for killing 2 'Mechs(1 enemy and 1 previously friendly) but you really only removed one pilot from the field.

in the very unusual case of something like this happening i still cant see how it would be wrong to get money for removing two enemy assets from the battlefield. even if you remove "only" one pilot from the field. you still removed two seperate dangers at two different points in time as these two targets are not there simultaniously. he might as well have gone back to hangar and charged in with a new mech. resulting in the same theoretical outcome.
also currently you dont get as much money for shooting the second nearly wrecked mech down compared to a new one. which also makes perfect sense to me.
sorry but i really cant see anything wrong with that.

Killer-Bee:
downsides:
one critical detail would be at the start of the level where you would gain very little money since all your enemies are warriors in either case.

Liberius:
Would this not be an advantage though? A major complaint about the current system is that not enough time is spent in the Light/Medium 'Mechs. A slower progression through a round would be more interesting. There are also plenty of "cheap" models of heavier 'Mechs, if people don't care for the light stuff.

if that would be an advantage and if the evaluation of the current system would be correct it would still not negate one of the flaws in your system i was aiming at. ranks dont show anything for anyone at the start of the game.
the quoted "deathleveling" or however you would like to call it for instance allows players to get as much money as they want at any point of the game when working together with a buddy. you just transfer your cbills to someone and suicide. repeat as often as you want. therefore a low rank player would go out in a heavy mech at the start of the game. but still the enemies will get a near equal amount of points for killing a light mech or that heavy mech as they are all just warrior rank. as described in your suggestion.
that just doesnt feel right if you ask me^^
also switching attention away from assault class mechs just because they have a low scoreboard rank as you described it doesnt seem right to me in any case.
even a newbie can hit hard with that firepower if he has the time to do so and they just cant bring those mechs up to their potentiall because it is somewhat encouraged at the moment to finish off those quickly.

(wow that is a long post)

indeed xD