Author Topic: Large bore autocannons (AC/10, AC/20)  (Read 3334 times)

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Offline Aposiopesis

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Large bore autocannons (AC/10, AC/20)
« on: March 14, 2010, 11:35:50 PM »
Currently, there's a bit of an odd discrepancy between the small and large bore autocannons. That is, the AC2s and AC5s fire similar to fluff (a change from Mechwarrior 3 and 4, but similar to 2). 10s and 20s, on the other hand, act more like MW4, with single shots and long waits on reloads, and not so much similar to the fluff (wherein AC10/20 blasts are usually described as stitching a burst of rounds over a target). I think a change towards the fluff style would both make them more interesting and add to weapon variety.

AC 20s are described in fluff as having a rate of fire of 1-10 rounds per CBT round, depending on the manufacturer. I would call a happy medium 5 or so, myself. As such, I think that a rate of fire of a round a second with a max of 5 seconds firing before needing cooldown. Obviously, damage would need to rebalanced as well. Rather than the current AoE effect 20s have, damage would be single area (the damage over multiple areas more likely coming from the likely spread of sustained fire). Heavy Gauss at close range presently does 3100 points of damage per hit at close range (with the ability to be used as a close range and poptart weapon). I would propose about 500 damage per hit to a single area from the AC20 rounds, thus equaling 2500 damage total over the full 5 second period. UACs would fire double the rounds in the same time, bringing them to 5000 damage over 5 seconds. Considering none of that is guaranteed to hit the same area, and one has to expose themself for the full time period to be able to hit a target with all of those rounds, I feel that's balanced towards the h-gauss ability to hit a single area for 3100 guaranteed damage in just a moment of self-exposure.

I suppose AC10s could have roughly double the fire rate at a little under 1/4 damage, equalling 2 rounds a second at about 110 damage a hit.. or about 1100 damage over the same 5 second period (with longer range and better projectile speed).

Changing to this mode of fire, in addition to making for a more interesting, brawler-like weapon, would also make LBXs a more distinguished and unique weapon.. leaving the role of single-shot, spread-area damage to them.

To try to represent the different rates of fire for each AC in typed out 'sound effects':

AC2: Cha-dadadadadadadada
AC5: Chatchatchatchatchatchatchat
AC10: Boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom
AC20: Ba-boom, ba-boom, ba-boom, ba-boom
(You know you love it)

Thoughts?




Offline 7.[WD]Ragor

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Re: Large bore autocannons (AC/10, AC/20)
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2010, 11:43:25 PM »
Exact my thoughts!  :)

And I would love it. But suppose its already too fixed and they won't change it... :'(

IIRC the BTU ACs fire whole clips, not single shots.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2010, 12:16:57 AM by Ragor »

Offline Profane Arbiter

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Re: Large bore autocannons (AC/10, AC/20)
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2010, 11:48:14 PM »
3rded...I've always felt the large autocannons weren't very "auto." Would like to see something similar to a true autocannon like the 40mm ones carried on C-130's.
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Offline Aposiopesis

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Re: Large bore autocannons (AC/10, AC/20)
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2010, 12:17:02 AM »
Yea. To the above poster, I rather liked the way autocannons fired in MW2 (even if the hitboxes were wonky as hell). Always much preferred that to the MW3 and especially MW4 versions.

I think this change goes along rather well with the idea of changing pulse lasers to more of an auto to diversify them further from the beam weapons (see the appropriate thread for that discussion).

As to the numbers I used above, note that was just a quick example, not necessarily the perfect balance or anything. I just quickly threw them out to represent the base idea.

Finally, I have no idea why I didn't post this in the ideas section, but it probably should be moved there.

Offline (TLL)CapperDeluxe

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Re: Large bore autocannons (AC/10, AC/20)
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2010, 01:04:43 AM »

To try to represent the different rates of fire for each AC in typed out 'sound effects':

AC2: Cha-dadadadadadadada
AC5: Chatchatchatchatchatchatchat
AC10: Boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom
AC20: Ba-boom, ba-boom, ba-boom, ba-boom
(You know you love it)

Thoughts?


I think they should all sound like PEW PEW PEW, or RATATATATATATATATAT

Offline whatever

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Re: Large bore autocannons (AC/10, AC/20)
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2010, 01:19:26 AM »
i would have to dissagree on changing autocannon rate of fire ..it would mess up the balance compleatly

the auto in auto cannon means there is a automatic loading mechanism...

the high rate of fire cannons are the RAC cannons...
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Offline Aposiopesis

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Re: Large bore autocannons (AC/10, AC/20)
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2010, 01:46:20 AM »
i would have to dissagree on changing autocannon rate of fire ..it would mess up the balance compleatly

the auto in auto cannon means there is a automatic loading mechanism...

the high rate of fire cannons are the RAC cannons...

Of course it changes the balance, but that's part of the idea. The balance is currently off.

However, you'll notice that AC2s and AC5s are already quite fast (RACs are super-fast versions of those). The idea of this is to make AC10s and AC20s more like the AC5s and 2s where they have a sustained fire rate (obviously, slower than 2s and 5s) rather than BOOM! ... relooooooooooooooooooooad. BOOM! ..... reloooooooooooad. This matches the fluff more accurately than the tank-gun like weapons we have at present.

Offline Killer-Bee

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Re: Large bore autocannons (AC/10, AC/20)
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2010, 01:50:11 AM »
i would have to dissagree on changing autocannon rate of fire ..it would mess up the balance compleatly
the auto in auto cannon means there is a automatic loading mechanism...
the high rate of fire cannons are the RAC cannons...
exactly my thoughts too.
also i rather like the different feel they have right now. dont need yet another set of high rate of fire guns.
dont think it would change balance for the better
Add a better camper weapon to stop camping.... i still dont get it.

Offline ~SJ~MausGMR

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Re: Large bore autocannons (AC/10, AC/20)
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2010, 02:37:38 AM »
I find the gap in the LBX's larger than the one between the standard AC's, LBX 5's are a joke unless quad mounted, spreads too wide and dmg too low. Think they should shoot more pellets myself, the current amont shot out by the lower calibre lbx's is far too low.


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Offline Aposiopesis

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Re: Large bore autocannons (AC/10, AC/20)
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2010, 03:10:15 AM »
i would have to dissagree on changing autocannon rate of fire ..it would mess up the balance compleatly
the auto in auto cannon means there is a automatic loading mechanism...
the high rate of fire cannons are the RAC cannons...
exactly my thoughts too.
also i rather like the different feel they have right now. dont need yet another set of high rate of fire guns.
dont think it would change balance for the better

I think you may be misinterpreting the rate of fire these things would have.

Examples:

AC10 speed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=vaQBLIAggps&feature=related

Maybe just a touch faster (if so, only slightly), but rather close to that.

or

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=EzXThJXRdbI&feature=related

AC20 speed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=IqWhOQw7_TY&feature=related

About double that, though even half again that speed would be solid. That's about the right size in caliber for an AC20, too. I'm pretty sure they can manage to at LEAST half again the rate of fire of a 5 inch gun in 1000 years. Presently, that 1900s-designed gun fires a similar sized round at double the rate of a MWLL AC20. In other words, a naval cannon from the 20th century fires at FOUR TO FIVE times the rate of a similarly sized round from our supposedly futuristic gun in MWLL.

Edit: For further comparison, that's a 125mm (roughly) gun. The Crusher Super Heavy Cannon, one of the canon AC20s, is a 150mm gun firing 10 shots a round [equal to a single 'fire' in CBT at 20 damage].. or 1 shot every second. In other words, a canon autocannon/20 shoots a larger round at 2x-3x the rate of fire of that 1900s designed naval cannon.




« Last Edit: March 15, 2010, 03:20:16 AM by Aposiopesis »

Offline Ned Boers

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Re: Large bore autocannons (AC/10, AC/20)
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2010, 03:16:23 AM »
well its amazing! isnt it? this is what i was thinking for months``

Offline Aposiopesis

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Re: Large bore autocannons (AC/10, AC/20)
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2010, 03:37:38 AM »
In addition, this would make brackets of (assuming pulsers are made autofire as well):


Extra Long Range:

Auto fire
AC2

Single shot
Lt. Gauss

Missile
T-bolt/Arrow


Long Range:

Auto fire
LPL
AC5
MG

Single shot
Gauss
PPC
Large Laser

Missile
LRM


Medium Range:

Auto fire
MPL
AC10

Single shot
LBX10
MBL

Missile
MRM


Short Range:

Auto fire
AC20
SPL

Single Shot
LBX20
SBL

Missile
SRM


RACs are grouped with their normal varieties; LBX5 are somewhat unique in having different usages at every range.

In any case, those are much more balanced and varied weapon brackets than what we have at present, in my opinion.


Offline Killer-Bee

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Re: Large bore autocannons (AC/10, AC/20)
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2010, 03:39:11 AM »
...
I think you may be misinterpreting the rate of fire these things would have.
...
not really. i imagined you wanted to change it to about that speed.
what i meant was that it removes some gameplay features about these close range weapons that are the only ones in that range department that work this way. u cant count lbx in because of the high spread shotgun effect you always need to be as close as possible. for instance hit and run tactics at that range dont work anymore if you change those weapons to be similar to the others as you will constantly need to remain in line of sight for the same damage per second.
Add a better camper weapon to stop camping.... i still dont get it.

Offline Aposiopesis

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Re: Large bore autocannons (AC/10, AC/20)
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2010, 03:55:30 AM »
...
I think you may be misinterpreting the rate of fire these things would have.
...
not really. i imagined you wanted to change it to about that speed.
what i meant was that it removes some gameplay features about these close range weapons that are the only ones in that range department that work this way. u cant count lbx in because of the high spread shotgun effect you always need to be as close as possible. for instance hit and run tactics at that range dont work anymore if you change those weapons to be similar to the others as you will constantly need to remain in line of sight for the same damage per second.

The bolded isn't true. LBX's have two different usages at different range. The bolded IS true if you're aiming for high damage on one specific location, but if you're engaging an enemy that has a weak spot--say a side torso almost gone, or a head about to fall off, maybe an arm or a leg, using the spread of LBX is perfect for finding that spot you need to hit with just a quick pass of your crosshairs over the target.

The italicized is addressed somewhat by the brackets above. Note how they change the face of things a bit. As for the same damage per second, the idea is to give these weapons higher damage per second to make up for this disadvantage. Indeed, AC20s and UAC20s especially should have the highest DPS of any weapon, as they require time spent close in as well as substantial target leading and relatively low ammo. If you want close range to truly be viable, you have to make close ranged weapons threatening enough that people in long-range oriented mechs will do whatever necessary to stay away. At present, long range mechs will stand-up fight close range mechs because the close ranged mech  (even if its been well-piloted) usually has enough damage from the long-ranged mech), and the long-ranged mech has close enough firepower to the short-ranged mech close in, that the long ranged mech can come out on top. Short range weapons need to be truly terrifying in their bracket, enough so to make getting banged up a bit by sniping on the way there worth it.

  Presently, the game is very slanted towards long-ranged weapons and sniping, even on supposed short-ranged maps; only the best pilots do a close-ranged mech (particularly of the heavier varieties) well, and even then the snipers are well on top. The increased exposure and long effective range drop-off just isn't worth the relatively minor damage increase in terms of the most important ratio in current play: damage given to damage taken. On the other hand, work in guns that are capable of sending multiple slugs of metallic death in a short period of time into the equation.. and with a change in the regular variants, LBX (especially with a minor damage buff) take on a much more unique role as well.

Thanks for your contributions to this thread, by the way. Criticism always helps to refine an idea.

Offline Nebfer

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Re: Large bore autocannons (AC/10, AC/20)
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2010, 04:25:22 AM »
Auto cannons have been consistently fluffed to be large caliber machineguns, often 30mm to 120mm in size with some going larger.

This would make a decent AC-2 anolog (sans speed)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJpqNFkd9gI
It's the Italian 76mm super rapid, capable of firing at 120RPM.

Remember an AC-2 can be just about any caliber as long as it fires off around 22kgs of ammo per shot and dose ~2 damage per hit...

RAC autocannons would be more like the 20mm CIWS, all be it in the 30 to 70mm range
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP6GpAnmAPU&feature=related

Gauss Rifles are fluffed to fire one massive slug at very high speeds, with the exception of the AP Gauss and Hyper Assault Gauss (or HAG) with fire multiple rounds.