Variants, Cost and the Mechlab.

[HAARP]

Well, I'll get straight to the point. The current prices of equipment sucks.
Prices were fine until 0.2.0. Everything had a sane pricetag and was affordable at pretty well-balanced ranks. But now? The system makes no sense and is counter-productive.

Take the LRM20 Puma for instance. It's so cheap, that it can be used at the beginning of the match. Why? Oh god, why? What happened to the LRM20 Partisan? Oh right, it got more expensive. Why would anyone want to use it now? It's slower than the Puma, less armored, less maneuverable, doesn't have the point-defense Machineguns or TAG. Yet, a simple IS AA tank driven by an Combustion Engine is far more expensive than a Clan mech with an unholy XL reactor. Care to explain?

What happened to the Oro? It used to be a nice, fast tank that packed a medium punch. Now, you don't see them anymore. Too expensive.

The Timber Wolf? Why would you want a Timber Wolf? But the time it gets available, you can buy many of the bigger Assaults. And the fact that the Timber Wolf runs only 64kph instead of the 86kph like it's supposed to (same goes for Mad Dog) doesn't help compensating the huge price tag.

Osiris? Dirt cheap, and there's a variant with an AC20. A fricking AC20! This is insane at this price tag! It shouldn't even be able to carry that kind of weaponry.

Prices were fine, and now whole units have become completely useless. I hope this gets sorted out by the time the Mechlab is released.

My proposal: Use CBT prices. Yes people, MWLL is not CBT, I know that. Some of you will run in circles now, arms in the air, screaming the names of deities because I mentioned the ungodly CBT. But you know what? As far as prices are concerned, it was balanced extremely well.

You could have very cheap light mechs, even with a little punch (Urbanmech is dirt cheap and has a lot of firepower due to its AC10). There are a lot of medium-priced mechs that are very good (Warhammer, Marauder, Rifleman, etc). Even the Atlas was kinda cheap, all things considered. Then came the Clans. With them, XL reactors, and suddenly you could pack a lot of firepower, armor and heatsinks into a small package. These machines are far more expensive, but very well worth it.

So, what's the point? It's simple. The engine has always been by far the most expensive part of a mech.

Combustion Engine: Dirt cheap, but won't really move anything beyond some tanks
Fusion Engines: Quite expensive and very heavy, but move mechs easily
XL Fusion Engines: Extremely expensive with a medium weight, Best ratio of weight to power

The player may choose. Only the XL engines allow for highly-optimized mechs that pack everything from speed to armor and weapons. The catch is the fact that XLs are godawfully expensive. Clan tech should be far more expensive than IS aswell. After all, it is superior, and Clanners need fewer mechs to achieve the same goal. Well, make them pay for it! Instead of balancing IS and Clan mechs to be equally good, balance the prices so by the time IS uses heavies, Clan will use mediums.
Make them pay for the best machines! Few, rich players can move around with highly-optimized mechs and the majority sticks with Fusion engines. This would reduce the number of overpowered variants on the battlefield, increase diversity and introduce some saner variants.

What I mean by that is the fact that once the Mechlab is out, I don't expect anyone to use anything but the biggest guns. AC2? Bah. Small laser? Useless. MGs? Nah. LRM5? Don't make me laugh. Nobody would use those anymore, why would they want anything below an LRM20 or AC5? If mech chassis become restrictive because XL engines are just so fricking expensive, we will see more of those smaller weapons and less machines optimized up to the last bolt. And lets be honest - don't you miss the times when your light mechs just had some medium and small lasers to plink away at each other instead of huge AC20 cannons? Nobody want's half a team with Novacats and the other half in Vultures because they offer the best price/firepower ratio, do they? This is stupid. Or consider the Quad UAC20/Gauss Assaults that will undoubtedly pop up when the Mechlab comes out. I'm dead serious here.

disclaimer: Please don't rip my head off. I know it's a beta. You don't have to point it out. I know that all is subject to change, this thread is merely to write my own ideas down.

[sleepysheep]

I do think some of the prices are just plain wrong. But hopefully next patch will adjust them. Like most things it's just trail and error.

Mentioning the mechlab when it's not out yet, is a bit of a taboo XD I'm sure if the prices for mechs are balanced then mechlab won't have that much of a negative effect on which weapons are used.

Being able to make super cheap mechs, even if all they use is MG, can be effictive when your cash is limited ^^

[=KoS= Eldragon]

I too agree that prices are wonky. Really tempting to go into specifics, but I won't. We all know stuff is going to change.

But will people use those smaller weapons if they could configure their own mechs? Hard to say.  Low price, low heat, and low tonnage can make even the Small Laser attractive. Just like in CBT. Personally I would probably put a pair of Small Pulse lasers on all my designs just for cutting down battle armor. And possibly toss in an AC2 to give my trigger finger something to do while I wait for the ERPPC to reload. Fortunately price can be used as a balance point. Unlike in other mech games where the only balance points are tonnage, heat, and crit slots.

CBT prices cannot be used simply because the weapons do no perform in the same manner, not to mention real-time vs. turn based.

Its going to be a whole lot of trail and error.

[snooggums]

If machine guns are the appropriate weight (.5 for IS and .25 for Clan) along with the other weapons I will absolutely use them or light lasers for anti BA, but in different configurations than the current load outs. Why take two small lasers on a medium laser mech when you can just buy a third med laser for the cost of two small and have consistent range for about the same heat?

I always thought that the default load outs put out in the board game and video games were ridiculous. There are never enough heat sinks or appropriate range combinations in my eyes, and mechs either lack focus or have silly arrangements that make items useless or unusable. these restrictions would make more sense if there was a power limit (ie only so many lasers or the mech can't handle it) outside of heat consumption. Why does an Awesome need four PPCs when it can only shoot two or three before starting to overheat? Sure, on cold planets or water planets there might be some additional heat dissipation to counter the buildup or as in tabletop they could overheat a bit and then spend a round cooling down but in a game like this being able to fire fewer weapons faster than having multiple inactive weapons.

Sure it makes you easier to disable, but that was primarily due to crits, which we don't have here. I would have no issue with meat sinks being high in cost to counter laser boating.

[~SJ~ Blhurr]

It's worth pointing out but not really discussing too indepthly for the reason stated above.  These prices can be changed with a couple of keystrokes and you know they will be.  I'm sure we'll be subjected to several iterations of price changes.

[Ishan]

I always thought that the default load outs put out in the board game and video games were ridiculous.

Well... thats maybe because the Novels on which this whole stuff is based on uses a bit different logic. And two fast firing small lasers to fight off a bunch of Soldiers carring an SRM Luncher with an Inferno rocket is much more preferable to another Med laser which makes you pray to whatever higher authority you believe in that i will complete its reload circle before that rocket cooks you alive.

And the games simply took over what the Novels created. And thats why some mechs use 2 small lasers instead of another med laser, because they are meant to fight footsoldiers (not bodyarms)... plain and simple soldiers with a tube rocketluncher on their backs or rigged explosives which they would use to run up to your mech and hook it into the kneejoints, to blast off the lower part of the legs with a bundle of highexplosives.

And while Med Lasers make perfect sense in an open territory... they loose out in a City fight with said soldiers.

For videogames, where there is real Mudhopper Army to run alongside the tanks and Mechs.. it might make a little less sense to have MGs and Small Lasers. Currently they are used to fight off Elemental Suits aka Body Armor, but their real purpose would have been to kill the 200 Arm Soldiers which would be laying entrenched somewhere with a bunch of Inferno Missiles firing that nasty stuff at Mechs.

[Grimnitemare]

They will probably leave it until mechlab.... personally I really think that 90% of the variants are garbage.... I only use a select few because of the weapons load outs, the chassis dont really matter to me because I cant change the options they have on them..... Pricing is a silly point right now to be honest... we should be bugging them for mechlab

[HAARP]

I think the fact that some Prime variants are strange is what makes them more fun. For that matter, I think that the more modifications differ from the Prime, the more they should cost. Yes, you should have to pay to have techs work on your mech

[snooggums]

I always thought that the default load outs put out in the board game and video games were ridiculous.

Well... thats maybe because the Novels on which this whole stuff is based on uses a bit different logic. And two fast firing small lasers to fight off a bunch of Soldiers carring an SRM Luncher with an Inferno rocket is much more preferable to another Med laser which makes you pray to whatever higher authority you believe in that i will complete its reload circle before that rocket cooks you alive.

And the games simply took over what the Novels created. And thats why some mechs use 2 small lasers instead of another med laser, because they are meant to fight footsoldiers (not bodyarms)... plain and simple soldiers with a tube rocketluncher on their backs or rigged explosives which they would use to run up to your mech and hook it into the kneejoints, to blast off the lower part of the legs with a bundle of highexplosives.

And while Med Lasers make perfect sense in an open territory... they loose out in a City fight with said soldiers.

For videogames, where there is real Mudhopper Army to run alongside the tanks and Mechs.. it might make a little less sense to have MGs and Small Lasers. Currently they are used to fight off Elemental Suits aka Body Armor, but their real purpose would have been to kill the 200 Arm Soldiers which would be laying entrenched somewhere with a bunch of Inferno Missiles firing that nasty stuff at Mechs.

Good point about the combined arms usage, as I never got into the novels I come from a view that focuses on the tabletop and computer games and how their mechanics worked.

On the tabletop a machine gun was the preferred method for killing infantry over small lasers (2D6 damage to infantry instead of the non-variable 3 for a small laser IIRC) or other weapons which is why I would keep the machine gun for anti infantry, even in this game against BA. Small lasers ended up being a better damage to heat ratio than larger weapons but with absolutely minimal range, more of a hit and run weapon in a city for light mechs against other armored targets as two small lasers did one additional point of damage for one less heat than a single medium laser for the trade off on range. Due to the recharge rate for lasers this is not nearly as comparable.

[Storm490]

I think that each variant of the mechs has a goood role at some point, you just have to figure it out.  People are not going to be like oh, btw this variant is for this map and that one is for that map.  And why use an LRM partisan instead of a Puma? 2 reasons, the first being turret rotation and viewing angles.  The partisan LRM is much better at AA.  The second reason would be for the fact that most of the time people will ignore a tank so long as your rolling between mechs, which is how you play a tank.  And as far as picking a MadCat when you could buy a larger assault, speed and terrain.  even at 65, it moves faster than any assault and is better suited to open ended maps such as clearcut and sandblasted.  Look, I get there are things you wanna change, and things I wanna change too.  But just be civil about it don't come blasting into a forum OMGZ GG LOL BBQ? Talk it out, and btw the Devs are doing this free, on their time and at their leisure.  You should be thanking them that they are putting time into this game, not telling them everything is wrong and not how you would do it and they need to fix it.  If you don't like it, learn to code and go help fix things.  Otherwise enjoy the game as is.  And this game is better than anything I have played in a long time. 

[HAARP]

I know that the Mechlab is still far away, I know that this mod is free and a lot of people invested a lot of time into making this. It's not like I don't appreciate it...I swear, I do!
But that doesn't have to stop me from discussing some ideas I had now, does it?

[=KoS= Eldragon]

Before writing off any of the MW:LL variants, I encourage anyone to take the 10 Kill challenge:

Destroy 10 units (Tank/Mech/Aircraft) in with and every variant in the game.

I did it with 0.1, and again with 0.2, and I will do it with every new variant we get. Its a great way to learn the weaknesses of various mechs if nothing else. Instead of having the mentality "Why should I take this Matcat over the Awesome?" Give yourself the mentality "I'm stuck with this Madcat, now how am I going to get kills with it?".

After 10 kills, You may find designs that you had written off as utter garbage as being quite useful with just a little practice at it. Personally I learned to love the Mauler prime.

Having said that, yes, some MW:LL variants kind of suck, same goes for CBT variants; both rules-wise and fluff-wise.

[Arghy]

I actually enjoy most prime variants then their other variants--madcat prime is really fun same with the vulture prime. The warhammer prime is also great fun.

[dCK-Warheart]

I simply want to say that I really second HAARP's post in almost every way. Stick to the TROs and the CBT Data. It's well balanced and it makes sense, some adjustments here and there would help people not to run round in their Osiris with an AC20 or a Thanatos with heavy Gauss, a Novacat with 4PPCs and other pretty imbalanced Variants.

I mean simply sticking to the designated Module Capacities of a Chassis would simply make sense.

I myself have emphasized often enough how much I appreciate the work of the devs. But I preferred the 0.1.0 game play simply for the fact that it was a little more balanced. After the euphoria over the new content the resignation of a very limited amount of chassis being used and the ever looming danger of 2 LTs on the opposite teams led me to play the game very seldom these days still checking for updates at least twice a day.

[(TLL)CapperDeluxe]

After 10 kills, You may find designs that you had written off as utter garbage as being quite useful with just a little practice at it. Personally I learned to love the Mauler prime.

Unlike that weakling Mauler A (2Gauss, 2LRM15).  Wouldn't be so bad if it instead used LRM20 in place of each LRM15, and had EOptics and BAP.  If not going to LRM20s, at least adding of 2-4 medium beam/pulse lasers for anti-BA operations and it would actually be a solid assault mech.  But as it is, it feels woefully underpowered as a 90 ton assault mech.