Variants, Cost and the Mechlab.

[~SJ~ Blhurr]

Maybe if it had double the armor.

[(TLL)Sky_walker]

Destroy 10 units (Tank/Mech/Aircraft) in with and every variant in the game.

Eldragon - this is one of the best things I heard lately. Really every single forum member should go for that before posting any suggestion or idea. It will both make people more aware of what's going on in game and post less stupid things on forum.

You got "thank you" from me!

ps. in case of misunderstanding - this has nothing to do with you HAARP Just a generic thought for all the members

[HAARP]

Before writing off any of the MW:LL variants, I encourage anyone to take the 10 Kill challenge:

Destroy 10 units (Tank/Mech/Aircraft) in with and every variant in the game.

I did it with 0.1, and again with 0.2, and I will do it with every new variant we get. Its a great way to learn the weaknesses of various mechs if nothing else. Instead of having the mentality "Why should I take this Matcat over the Awesome?" Give yourself the mentality "I'm stuck with this Madcat, now how am I going to get kills with it?".

After 10 kills, You may find designs that you had written off as utter garbage as being quite useful with just a little practice at it. Personally I learned to love the Mauler prime.

Having said that, yes, some MW:LL variants kind of suck, same goes for CBT variants; both rules-wise and fluff-wise.

Good point. That's what I did. I must say, it was a fun experience. Sometimes I stuck with a variant for a while (Partisan Prime for instance was fun for a while since it popped any BA that dared to wander into its sights)
But I also found many variants that shouldn't even be possible, are strange or overpowered or simply ruin the fun in my opinion. AC20 Osiris (and maybe the Uller with the overpowered Gauss), Quad-LRM Vulture, LRM Cougar, LRM Puma (at least for the current price), some HGauss mechs (insta-leg) to name a few.

Not only are they sometimes boring, they also don't transmit the old "Battletech feeling". Those of you who played the tabletop will know what I mean. Having to do with what you have, even if it's not perfect and making the best of it. That's the fun in my opinion, not the typical FPS feel of "you got a gun, I got the same gun, now let's see who twitches faster"

I admit, I made a mistake in the first post. There are reasons to prefer the Madcat over the Assaults. But that wasn't actually my point. What I was getting at was that the Madcat was simply overpriced, that's all.

Oh, and please don't start discussing whether those mechs are op or not. We had enough threads about that. It's just my opinion here.

[snooggums]

I think the fact that some Prime variants are strange is what makes them more fun.

If the Mechlab allows engine and armor mods the first thing I'm going to make is a Charger out of an Awesome.

[=KoS= Eldragon]

Eldragon - this is one of the best things I heard lately. Really every single forum member should go for that before posting any suggestion or idea. It will both make people more aware of what's going on in game and post less stupid things on forum.

You got "thank you" from me!

Thanks for the kind words. The "10 Kill Challenge" is intended to do exactly what you describe. It was something I came up with at a lan party a month ago when a couple guys there instantly wrote off most of the mechs without actually trying them. I know some people on the forums do that too.

Are some variants questionable? yeah.
Are there some minor improvements that can be made? Absolutely.
Are some overpowered? Yes.

But I don't think its quite fair to simply write off the majority. IMHO there are only 3 or so that are either redundant or not worth ever taking. There will always be those kinds of players looking for the "perfect" mech. Many MW:LL mechs are certainly imperfect.

I agree with HAARP in that MW:LL does not quite have that battletech feel to it, and i think it has to do with the sub-optimal variants in CBT. Yet I hesitate to compare MWLL and CBT, to me they are different games. In CBT bad designs are practically part of the game play. When playing the game more like an RPG, it gives you room to upgrade. Also gives you something to spend your c-bills on. Drop the Machine guns and add some medium lasers. Replace that PPC with an ER version, etc.

Whenever I play CBT and people are allowed to bring whatever custom mech they want (e.g. Mechlab), you get a whole lot of munchkin designs (Stealth Armor Gausszilla anyone?). Whenever you only allow stock variants, you see the same designs coming up again and again. Some stock designs are simply better than others, and in MW:LL its no different. But there is a wide gulf between "better" and "not worth using"

[Storm490]

After thinking over it more, I believe that I have a hypothesis for why prices may not seem in line with how valuable or good the tech is.  The reason a clan light costs around the same as an IS light is probably to differentiate levels of mechs.  All lights costs under x, all mediums under y, all heavies under z, all assault under a.  Sure some heavies will costs as little as the most expensive medium, but generally I see it as separating the levels of mechs.  Its not about getting more cbills to get a better mech in terms of equipment and build, its to get a better class of mech. 

[=KoS=Zeus]

Bigger doesn't always mean better.

The number of Shadowcats I constantly run into should be a firm indicator that that mech is giving players something they want very much. i.e. jump jets and an accurate and long range 3,000+ damage alpha strike.

I can imagine, when the mechlab is available, that people will be taking SCats and giving them dual CERPPCs and loads of heat sinks so they never have to worry about ammo, inflict similar damage, have better range, transfer heat to the target, and scramble enemy targeting for that brief window of return fire.

[sleepysheep]

Bigger doesn't always mean better.

The number of Shadowcats I constantly run into should be a firm indicator that that mech is giving players something they want very much. i.e. jump jets and an accurate and long range 3,000+ damage alpha strike.

I can imagine, when the mechlab is available, that people will be taking SCats and giving them dual CERPPCs and loads of heat sinks so they never have to worry about ammo, inflict similar damage, have better range, transfer heat to the target, and scramble enemy targeting for that brief window of return fire.

Depends how they make up the scat in MWLL. In all the previous versions of MW, the scat always had one energy weapon in one arm and one Ballistic type in the other. Even though I do hope we can have 2 ERPPC in scat that would be awsome Heat would be overkill though.

[=KoS=Zeus]

The "slots", AFAIR, do not have ballistic or energy restrictions, only gun vs. missile. Thus you can have your Vulture Prime with LPL and MPL in the arm assault slot, or a Gauss Rifle on the Vulture A.

This does lead to some confusion though as the Catapult A breaks the mold by mounting PPCs on the missile berths. Who knows how mechlab will be implemented, I just know that when it comes out I'm going to break the ever living crap out of it so that it can be balanced.

And by balanced I mean; when I see a mech and identify it by silhouette, I should have a pretty good idea what weapons it is mounting and not be surprised when an Awesome opens fire with 4 LRM-20s.

[~SJ~MausGMR]

It's pretty blatantly obvious that 'alpha strike' mentality is already on the rise.

Since the new patch, what are the most popular mechs?

AC20 Osiris
UAC20 Shadow Cat
Hvy Gauss Hollander
Hvy Gauss Thanatos
Hvy Gauss Atlas
UAC MK2
UAC Mauler

and ofc theres the long tom.

Is anyone else seeing how mech lab is going to totally screw balance when its finally released?

I have great fun atm running in mechs that have good balanced firepower that requires my aim to be solid and CONSISTANT, none of this aim for CT once, get the lucky hit, move on to next target because youve totally just obliterated that one.

Its the whole problem with mechwarrior unfortunately, people want to kill targets in one shot. It's why assaults suffer atm, they are much easier to land pinpoint hits on than other mechs because of their slow speed and size. It doesnt matter if your packing 20 more tonnes of armour than my madcat, if i'm landing all my shots on your CT, overall its only going to take me maybe one more gauss to take your CT out than its going to take you to kill mine....

I still stand by the concept of - screw the mech lab. Let the dev's do the variants, and keep it mainly close to CBT loadouts, to actually have us playing mechwarrior, not hillbillytech where we see who can strap the biggest and most powerful weapons, in the most ridiculous looking fashion, onto the most unsuitable chassis. We'll all run around in flavour of the month mechs, and the spirit of the setting, well we might as well just flush that down the pan, because I don't think its going to be around anymore.

[(TLL)CapperDeluxe]

Is anyone else seeing how mech lab is going to totally screw balance when its finally released?

Nope, I see it as the reverse, as bringing balance.  Remember this isn't going to be like mechwarrior 3 where you can put 14 lasers all in your legs, head, and torsos. I'm pretty sure its pod based with certain restrictions and that should lead to seeing more light gauss, ERLL, ERPPC trumping your AC20 strikers.

I'm sure at the least there will be a server flag for preventing usage of mechlab in certain servers, so if you want to play that way then go have fun, but I think writing it off this early before you've even seen it implemented is being shortsighted.

[(TLL)martinroshak]

How about making the only customisable mechs the omnis?  As far as omnimechs go we've only got the Puma, Cougar, Uller, Vulture, Nova Cat, Owens, Shadow Cat and Mad Cat... not to mention that we'll have the Blood Asp and Masakari in the end... okay, so we do have a lot of omnis, but look at the list: the majority of them are all lighter designs, with those that are heavier already being boaters of some sort (Nova Cat, Vulture).  I'll be interested to see what Blood Asp and Masakari variants come out, but let's just say, we don't have a Daishi in, so that means I wouldn't be able to field a four Gauss Rifle one    I think the mechs that you would be boating on are practically already boats of some kind.  Me thinks once we have all the mechs in the game that are planned, customs will be an option, but the base variants will be just as good too (A Fafnir anyone...?  That in and of itself would be equivalent to any sort of custom someone would want to do). 

Although, ignoring the omni idea, seeing an 8+ LBL Atlas would be utterly horrifying 

Also, CapperDeluxe you got in before me, what you're saying is correct in my opinion as well.  This game is about survival above all else, and the survivors are the smart ones and the snipers at the moment.  Either those that can brawl effectively and remain situationally aware, of those that sit on the edges of their maximum range and use their weapons effectively.

I'm kinda looking foward to something like a 4 Light Gauss Rifle variant... dang pesky boaters will be running then

[Arghy]

If you allow armor to be added in mechlab then it would be balanced--people walking around in glass cannons while others walk around in 12 tons of extra armor. If you just change the cost of weapons rather then nerfing them it would be so bad--make it cost more to pile on the same weapons, 2 LBL's cost the same as 3 LBL's.

[HAARP]

It's pretty blatantly obvious that 'alpha strike' mentality is already on the rise.

Since the new patch, what are the most popular mechs?

AC20 Osiris
UAC20 Shadow Cat
Hvy Gauss Hollander
Hvy Gauss Thanatos
Hvy Gauss Atlas
UAC MK2
UAC Mauler

and ofc theres the long tom.

Is anyone else seeing how mech lab is going to totally screw balance when its finally released?

I have great fun atm running in mechs that have good balanced firepower that requires my aim to be solid and CONSISTANT, none of this aim for CT once, get the lucky hit, move on to next target because youve totally just obliterated that one.

Its the whole problem with mechwarrior unfortunately, people want to kill targets in one shot. It's why assaults suffer atm, they are much easier to land pinpoint hits on than other mechs because of their slow speed and size. It doesnt matter if your packing 20 more tonnes of armour than my madcat, if i'm landing all my shots on your CT, overall its only going to take me maybe one more gauss to take your CT out than its going to take you to kill mine....

I still stand by the concept of - screw the mech lab. Let the dev's do the variants, and keep it mainly close to CBT loadouts, to actually have us playing mechwarrior, not hillbillytech where we see who can strap the biggest and most powerful weapons, in the most ridiculous looking fashion, onto the most unsuitable chassis. We'll all run around in flavour of the month mechs, and the spirit of the setting, well we might as well just flush that down the pan, because I don't think its going to be around anymore.

I fully agree with you on that! Especially the AC20 Osiris and UAC20 Scat are overkill. The Scat was designed for a Gauss Rifle or similiar weapon and some backup weapons. 2 huge damage dealers for a small price like currently is, once again, insane.

How about making the only customisable mechs the omnis?  As far as omnimechs go we've only got the Puma, Cougar, Uller, Vulture, Nova Cat, Owens, Shadow Cat and Mad Cat... not to mention that we'll have the Blood Asp and Masakari in the end... okay, so we do have a lot of omnis, but look at the list: the majority of them are all lighter designs, with those that are heavier already being boaters of some sort (Nova Cat, Vulture).  I'll be interested to see what Blood Asp and Masakari variants come out, but let's just say, we don't have a Daishi in, so that means I wouldn't be able to field a four Gauss Rifle one    I think the mechs that you would be boating on are practically already boats of some kind.  Me thinks once we have all the mechs in the game that are planned, customs will be an option, but the base variants will be just as good too (A Fafnir anyone...?  That in and of itself would be equivalent to any sort of custom someone would want to do). 

Now that would be very cool indeed. IS non-omnis should still be modifiable, but the process will cost a lot (Clan non-omnis shouldn't be modifiable at all). They might be at a bit of a disadvantage, but their numerous non-omni mechs would be dirt cheap. Atlas vs. Madcat anybody?
This could result in truly asymmetric gameplay. More fun if you ask me. Balancing might be tricky, but in the end, it could be worth it. Introducing the concept of an Omnimech might increase diversity even more and make some chassis that were previously considered boring very interesting.

Want a Warhammer? K, here's 4 variants for you to choose. Oh, you want to modify it? Sorry, that'll cost you extra. May I offer you this nice Thanatos Omnimech to play with instead?

[(TLL)Siilk]

Look, I get there are things you wanna change, and things I wanna change too.  But just be civil about it don't come blasting into a forum OMGZ GG LOL BBQ? Talk it out, and btw the Devs are doing this free, on their time and at their leisure.  You should be thanking them that they are putting time into this game, not telling them everything is wrong and not how you would do it and they need to fix it.  If you don't like it, learn to code and go help fix things.  Otherwise enjoy the game as is.  And this game is better than anything I have played in a long time.

 Be civil? That's exactly what HAARP did. Calmly made a proposal to start a discussion of what he(and some other people on this forum) sees as unbalanced. Not simply blaming devs for a bad game balance, but helping them to find one. After all, this is what public beta discussion board is for: providing devs with a feedback on their current beta release.

 Being more on topic, I tend to agree With HAARP, some pricing in 0.2.0 are imbalanced. While I, mostly, ok with current mech prices, vehicles(especially Oros and Partisan C) are to expensive. Take Oro A, for example, Having firepower somehow equal to SCat C, but lacking it's speed, maneuverability and JJs, it shouldn't cost 20k cbills more, than SCat C, as it is now. Such overpricing, absolutely uncalled IMO, is the main reason we haven't seen Oros on the battlefield since 0.2.0 is out.