Author Topic: Risk/Reward is seriously broke - or: "Brawling is for chumps".  (Read 6503 times)

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Offline 7.[WD]Ragor

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Re: Risk/Reward is seriously broke - or: "Brawling is for chumps".
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2010, 03:10:25 PM »
>>> clicky clicky <<<

One of the best posts I've read in this forum so far!

Can't agree more!
« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 05:20:53 PM by Ragor »

Offline (TLL)Siilk

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Re: Risk/Reward is seriously broke - or: "Brawling is for chumps".
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2010, 03:12:41 PM »
Secondly, Siilk I don't think you totally understood some of my points. In one I say that 'Partisan AA aside' and you loudly proclaim in your response that the Partisan AA invalidates what I'm saying. ASF / VTOL were problematic in 0.1.0, and the only thing in that regard that changed was the Gauss got nerfed to be useless against them while AC2s / AC5s got their damage enhanced. While a pilot may OCCASIONALLY put themselves into a position where, for some asinine reason, a NovaCat is able to fire against them, any halfway-competent pilot will be able to avoid these situations 90% of the time. ASF/VTOL armor is on par with a light mech, and even landing sporadic potshots isn't enough to destroy a light mech. I've hit VTOLs and ASFs with various anti-vehicle weapons like ERPPCs, AC20s, etc and while they do damage, they simply don't do enough to actually bring them down. I'll also point out that anything short of DESTROYING an aircraft is worthless. They usually have to return to the airfield on a regular basis, they can be repaired and back in the fight faster than any other unit in the game. So merely damaging an aircraft is rarely enough.

 Saying that Aero is a tough asset is laughable. The main flyboys enemy is AC5, which is especially designed for this task, as in 0.2.0 it has increased damage against aeros and VTOLs. Partisan prime can destroy Hawkmoth or Sulla in mater of seconds, literally. As for "occasional PPC hits", do you really expected that anything, except for BA could be downed by a single PPC shot? Now on a "anything short of DESTROYING an aircraft is worthless" matter. Aero with a single wing destroyed loses all of it's controllability altogether, you cannot steer, climb or dive until you crash into the ground. Aero with it's engine destroyed just falls to the ground. And if you have ever tried to land in a sulla with a slightly damaged hull, you already knew, that "repaired and back in the fight faster than any other unit in the game" is hugely exaggerated, as most of such landings results in a crash. Just ask some of the experienced Aero pilots here or, better try to do it yourself and you'll see what it takes to land in that condition. All in all, I'm beginning to suspect, that you have no experience with air assets altogether. 
 
Gauss was a fairly useful counter against aircraft and I'm not sure at all why they decided to nerf it. I'm not saying aircraft need to be destroyed by a small laser, but the ground-attack variants carry weaponry that is simply overpowered for what you get by virtue of being an ASF. There's a few ways you could fix this - for example, NARC is defeated by ECM, simply reducing TBolt splash, changing FBombs to individual precision attack munitions that have to be guided with TAG, and not just a big goddamn nuke.

 Try some firebombing, pal. Just try it. And then come back and tell us how many Atlases you have kiled. And how many times a single Partisan Prime or Harasser C ruined your fresh Sulla. Unlike LT, aeros are really hard to be good with and all their firepower is 100% paid by risk pilots take. Same goes for VTOLs.

To be more constructive, I think a major source of balance problem is that we've gravitated too far from CBT.

Yes, you can't just copy-paste CBT in. There's things you can do in there that aren't possible in an FPS, and there's things that arise in an FPS that aren't issues in CBT. But there's one thing that should be able to carry over flawlessly - every weapon in CBT is designed like it is for a reason, whether it be a specific purpose they had in mind (for example, LB-20Xs being crit-seekers), or a relationship with another weapon (LRMs vs. Thunderbolts - LRM-20s do 1 point of damage for every missile all over a mech. Thunderbolt 20s do 20 points of damage as ONE missile to a SINGLE part of a mech).

You should be able to get that translated in-game with no problem. Right now we have a noodly spaghetti mess of weapon balance that is making it hell to make the game work. Because we take liberties with one weapon, it affects the relationship with another weapon which ends up turning into a domino effect of balance problems.

 Except that CBT has no aimed shots for moving assets and there's no "to-hit" involved in FPS mechanics, there's no critical hits, getting up after falling and melee  combat is impossible due to engine limitation and there's no sane way to model Gauss or PPC being unable to hit close target. This is not tabletop, this is not Mechwarrior, it's MWLL. Things are different here, deal with that.



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Re: Risk/Reward is seriously broke - or: "Brawling is for chumps".
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2010, 03:16:50 PM »
I hear your points but some of your biggest complaints are some of the easiest modifications. Adjusting the ranges and power of specific weapon classes is probably the most easily tweaked code in the mod.
 
I'm a brawler by nature as well and this game doesn't currently cater to the brawler.  Brawler's give up all long range fire power in order to have the speed,armor, and short range punch to get in close.  To be fair though, this could easily swing too far the other way with the press of a couple buttons.
 
There are also a dozen other explanations for the drop off in playerbase after every patch release.  Difficulty of installation and customization, instability of the platform client and serverside, lack of variation in maps, etc.  Risk/reward is not that far off.  You're experiencing a very different game than what I see everyday.  There is a fair mix of combat that occurs at 300 meters and at 1000 meters.  I rarely feel pigeonholed into one or the other unless the other team has gone with one or the other.
 
A couple tweaks to short range damage, electronics, and armor and the game becomes more brawler friendly.  Easily dealt with imo.  It's fair for your thread to point this out but maybe it's a bit broad in scope and delivered with too great a punch?
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Offline 7.[WD]Ragor

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Re: Risk/Reward is seriously broke - or: "Brawling is for chumps".
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2010, 03:24:30 PM »
Sorry Siilk, first time in this forum I don't agree with you! But I really must agree with Monkeybonk. The Gauss have high damage plus the speed of the projectile plus extrem range plus reload really fast if you compare it all to an U/AC-20 / LBX 20. Isn't the gauss even lighter?

-> Ok, AC got (...) splashdamage. But the gauss is good at all ranges, no real drawback. ACs? Yes, I myself love to fire overrange with them (I know even at some specific ranges how many pixels I have to aim above the wished impact point), but that's more using the gamemechanic vs itself and needs lots of skill AND luck thx to slow projectile speed.

IMO the problem is why you cannot transfer the CBT-values to a fps game is the chance of hitting. In an FPS game IMO all weapons must be balanced if they would hit with every salvo, in a board game its always a chance thx to dice.

[Wow, this is my first 'serious' post since I nearly quitted out of the whole MWLL-story. But Monkeybonks post really reflect nearly all the 'problems' I got with the game. (...)]

EDIT#1: The loose of players. I talked with many after they quitted this mod. Nearly always the same points.
The BT-nerds looking for their haven for next years: Too far away from the BTU.
The 'ordinary' gamer who wanna have fun: BF:BC2 came out (or another game)

EDIT#2: MW4 got a active community since many years (although the game causes eye cancer). How did they do it? What is Mektek-team working on atm? Yes, turning it more in to an sim, to a more complex game. -> The fans stay with it, new nerds find to the game. The ordinary game stays when he likes the setting. Or would anyway leave when HaloX comes out/after some weeks.

Just follow the active communities of different genres. Examples: The GTR2-corner. Fullsim (ugly graphics) with a gigantic, active and still growing community.
Or what about Silent Hunter 3?!? Or OpF1? Or IL2? Or the DesertCombat mod?
If a game is simple, yes, easy to access, cool. But no fun for play it over the years. The more complex a game is the more options you got how to play the game the more interesting it will last.
But I know, I talk with myself atm... 
« Last Edit: April 15, 2010, 03:43:27 PM by Ragor »

Offline HAARP

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Re: Risk/Reward is seriously broke - or: "Brawling is for chumps".
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2010, 03:35:53 PM »
Sorry Siilk, I really must agree with Monkeybonk. The Gauss have high damage plus the speed of the projectile plus extrem range plus reload really fast if you compare it all to an U/AC-20 / LBX 20. Isn't the gauss even lighter?

-> Ok, AC got (...) splashdamage. But the gauss is good at all ranges, no real drawback. ACs? Yes, I myself love to fire overrange with them (I know even at some specific ranges how many pixels I have to aim above the wished impact point), but that's more using the gamemechanic vs itself and needs lots of skill AND luck thx to slow projectile speed.

IMO the problem is why you cannot transfer the CBT-values to a fps game is the chance of hitting. In an FPS game IMO all weapons must be balanced if they would hit with every salvo, in a board game its always a chance thx to dice.

[Wow, this is my first 'serious' post since I nearly quitted out of the whole MWLL-story. But Monkeybonks post really reflect nearly all the 'problems' I got with the game. (...)]

EDIT: The loose of players. I talked with many after they quitted this mod. Nearly always the same points.
The BT-nerds looking for their haven for next years: To far away from BTU.
The 'ordinary' gamer who wanna have fun: BF:BC2 came out (or another game)

BTW: MW4 got a active community since many years (although the game causes eye cancer). How did they do it? What is Mektek-team working on atm? Yes, turning it more in to an sim, to a more complex game. -> The fans stay with it, new nerds find to the game. The ordinary game stays when he likes the setting. Or would anyway leave when HaloX comes out/after some weeks.

Just follow the active communities of different genres. Examples: The GTR2-corner. Fullsim, ugly game, gigantic, active and still growing community.
Or what about Silent Hunter 3?!? Or OpF1? Or IL2? Or the DesertCombat mod?
If a game is too simple, yes, easy to access, cool. But no fun for play it over the years. The more complex a game is the more options you got how to play the game the more interesting it will last.
But I know, I talk with myself atm... 
This man speaketh the truth!

I see so much potential in this mod. It is too soon to tell, but it looks like it's currently headed towards "Random Walking Tanks - Living Legends". This really saddens me :'(
I hope the devs can sort these things out. I appreciate what they've done so far, and it would be a shame if we can't get a proper, stable playerbase.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2010, 04:39:57 PM by HAARP »

Offline (TLL)Siilk

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Re: Risk/Reward is seriously broke - or: "Brawling is for chumps".
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2010, 04:50:30 PM »
...
This man speaketh the truth!

I see so much potential in this mod. It is too soon to tell, but it looks like it's currently headed towards "Random Walking Tanks - Living Legends". This really saddens me :'(

 Is MWLL that bad for you? I never stated that it's perfect, but to be sad about what MWLL is aiming for? IMO it's one of the best action/sim implementations of battletech. MW had sketchy combat simulation at best, MW2 was fun and very CBT all in all, but I hardly had any balance. MW3, my favourite, was close to perfection, there even was falling and getting up implemented, mech models was awesome for that time, they looks great even now, but it still had it's issues(legging death, anyone?). MW4, well, without Mektek it's hardly better than MechAssault, and even with it MW4 has strong arcade action aftertaste. And, of course, no MW game ever tried to bring in other BT vehicles as playable(and useful) game assets. A couple of MWs had Elementals but they had laughable performance.

-> Ok, AC got (...) splashdamage. But the gauss is good at all ranges, no real drawback. ACs? Yes, I myself love to fire overrange with them (I know even at some specific ranges how many pixels I have to aim above the wished impact point), but that's more using the gamemechanic vs itself and needs lots of skill AND luck thx to slow projectile speed.

IMO the problem is why you cannot transfer the CBT-values to a fps game is the chance of hitting. In an FPS game IMO all weapons must be balanced if they would hit with every salvo, in a board game its always a chance thx to dice.

 Actually in CBT Gauss is one of weapons without major drawbacks. It's powerful, has long range and good to-hit values. Of course, you cannot get an aimed shot in CBT and Gus is unsuitable for close-range combat(again, to-hit values), but in all other aspects it's pretty much top dog. As for UACs, CBT UACs has their range strictly limited. Firing at something distant with UAC 20 is impossible, which mkes MWLL ACs/UACs somewhat better that CBT. Again, if you think Gauss is overpowered, why no complains on lasers? LBL is way more suited for sniping. It's a hitscan, it requires no ammo and even one or two of them could core light mech in no time.

 And, frankly, no previous MW game had it's weapons function exactly as in CBT. Just think of how LRMs, gauss and PPCs where implemented in MW2, 3 and 4 and you'll get the point. Some CBT weapon quirks just doesn't make sense, when looked at from first person perspective.



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Offline SquareSphere }12thVR{

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Re: Risk/Reward is seriously broke - or: "Brawling is for chumps".
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2010, 04:57:17 PM »
regardless, threads like this that are well worded and thought out help the mod in developing moving forward.  There's always going to be balance tweaks until all assets/weapons are frozen and nothing new can be added.  Just look at games like TF2 or WOW they constantly have balance updates.

No matter what people's initial thoughts are on the mod, the fact remains we're still in early BETA and things will continue to change dramatically for the near future.
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Offline =KoS= Eldragon

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Re: Risk/Reward is seriously broke - or: "Brawling is for chumps".
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2010, 04:58:20 PM »
I completely agree with the OP. Whats funny is people brought up these same points quite a while ago in these forums, and they got shouted down by the usual "Learn 2 Play" crowd. I do pretty well as a brawler, but only when there are enough other people doing the same thing. When an entire server degenerates to Gauss sniping, Long Tom, and Missile boating, its hard to get excited for the next map knowing its all going to happen again.

 The game is fun, but it is brutal to a newbie player, and has some balance issues, which is totally expected in a beta. I'm taking a break from MW:LL waiting for  the next version to fix some of these issues, as I am sure are many others.

Comparing MW:LL to CBT is ugly at best. One is real-time first person, the other is turn based squad level. Comparing Apples and Oranges.

Offline 7.[WD]Ragor

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Re: Risk/Reward is seriously broke - or: "Brawling is for chumps".
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2010, 05:02:58 PM »
(...)
I see so much potential in this mod. It is too soon to tell, but it looks like it's currently headed towards "Random Walking Tanks - Living Legends". This really saddens me :'(
I hope the devs can sort these things out. I appreciate what they've done so far, and it would be a shame if we can't get a proper, stable playerbase.

Saddens me, too. And I know too many players which left to the stated reasons above.

IMO the Gauss' could have much less ammo -> 'normal' just 8 shots, light 12. (About the heavy I won't write anything.) It still would be nice for sniping (where you got time and space to fall back to resupply and hey, you don't have so far to go since you stay more in the own lines. When it comes to a brawl they get in trouble due to lack of ammo.
BTW: I really use the gauss quite a lot (Warhammer A-Sandblasted and Uller/Demolisher-Clearcut), but I nearly always move towards the enemies over the flanks -> I don't wanne nerf something which annoys because I got shot by it without having experience by using by myself.

Thats the same reason why I can't say anything about the lasers -> I nearly never use any kinds of lasers, I always prefer ballistic weapons.
Since I love to brawl my fav of all mechs is the Warhammer B btw (and when we got the mechlab I will put UAC-10 into him with an MRM-20. (calculated it, 6 tons still left)

Edit: MWLL is the best BT-game (except aged MW3, MW4 was a shame as it was released comparing to BT) out there, but small things are on the ebst way destroying it for me, I'm damn close to follow many others.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2010, 05:10:41 PM by Ragor »

Offline HAARP

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Re: Risk/Reward is seriously broke - or: "Brawling is for chumps".
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2010, 05:06:03 PM »
...
This man speaketh the truth!

I see so much potential in this mod. It is too soon to tell, but it looks like it's currently headed towards "Random Walking Tanks - Living Legends". This really saddens me :'(

 Is MWLL that bad for you? I never stated that it's perfect, but to be sad about what MWLL is aiming for? IMO it's one of the best action/sim implementations of battletech. MW had sketchy combat simulation at best, MW2 was fun and very CBT all in all, but I hardly had any balance. MW3, my favourite, was close to perfection, there even was falling and getting up implemented, mech models was awesome for that time, they looks great even now, but it still had it's issues(legging death, anyone?). MW4, well, without Mektek it's hardly better than MechAssault, and even with it MW4 has strong arcade action aftertaste. And, of course, no MW game ever tried to bring in other BT vehicles as playable(and useful) game assets. A couple of MWs had Elementals but they had laughable performance.

No, it's not. I'm glad MWLL is being made and thank the devs for it! But you have to agree that there are things currently plain wrong. Sure, it's still a beta, but that's actually a reason to discuss things, isn't it?

I see huge potential, and it would be a shame to let it go to waste. Mechwarrior games were all dumbed down (especially MW4) and always had their own quirks that never seemed right. MWLL is the chance to make things right, PLUS making it Battletech, with all the assets, the history, the feel and spirit. I always strife for perfection, and that is the reason you'll always see me whining. Don't take it as an insult (this goes for the devs) but instead look at my sig. :)

Offline (TLL) Zeh

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Re: Risk/Reward is seriously broke - or: "Brawling is for chumps".
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2010, 05:54:35 PM »
I think the complaints of being unable to brawl are both valid, but explainable and shouldn't be changed IMO. 

Yes, if you charge superior numbers of enemy, and the enemy is prepared or sees your charge, you should die.  If the enemy sees you coming and can shoot you while you come, expect it.  What the hell else would you want?  Just yesterday I circled around a pyramid with a passive SCAT, and killed two Vultures and a Warhammer without taking major damage, mostly by myself, because they were occupied with the long-range pea-shooting ahead of them.  Brawling should be used as a surprise technique, and pretty much that is the only way it would EVER work in a "real" situation.  No thinking individual is ever going to let you get close if you have good close-range weapons.  If you think you should be able to walk up and fight with them, play a game that doesn't allow strategy and tactics. 
I honestly can't think of anything that would make the idea of "march right up and fight those mechs that don't want to fight at close range" a valid strategy without gimping most all other available tactics.  Use a GECM mech and go passive, use cover to prevent being seen visually, TADA you get to brawl.  Just hope you're not thinking it's a good tactic if there are 2-3x your numbers over that hill. 

Lastly, on a personal note, I can think of nothing in this game less fun than a circle-of-death one-on-one face-off.  Bleh.

Offline (TLL)Siilk

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Re: Risk/Reward is seriously broke - or: "Brawling is for chumps".
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2010, 05:57:27 PM »
I always strife for perfection, and that is the reason you'll always see me whining. Don't take it as an insult (this goes for the devs) but instead look at my sig. :)

 I know, man, I know. And I know, that current weapons balance is neither perfect, nor completely CBT. But, personally, I cannot see a better way to balance things in MWLL. Sure, a couple of tweaks here and there would be nice, but I think devs done a pretty good job in finding sweet spot between being canon and being playable. As for OP, we still haven't seen his "few theories" on game balance. Please, Monkeybonk, care to post the way to improve a balance as you see it, even if you still haven't polished your thoughts yet. Even a brief overview of an idea could lead to great insights sometimes. 



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Offline 7.[WD]Ragor

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Re: Risk/Reward is seriously broke - or: "Brawling is for chumps".
« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2010, 06:03:05 PM »
I think the complaints of being unable to brawl are both valid, but explainable and shouldn't be changed IMO. 
(...)

I agree with the (...)-part of your post.
But the complaints (as I wanted to understand the topic) are a lot about that many longerange weapons have no drawback vs the dedicated brawling weapons in a brawl. With the AC-weapon family in a circle of death situation you must calculate the speed, with srm in close combat you must fire them without a lock to gain some hist when fighting fast targets. That all fine. With a Guass  you can aim more directly, much easier to shoot the opponent tp pieces.

As I mentioned before, I would like to see the ammo supply of the gauss' reduced. The more I think about it how it work out in-game the more I like this idea.
For the trade of aking the risk closing up to the enemy you won't have such a long time the field fighting because of lacking ammo and in a brawl you would run out really fast. Advantage AC.

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Re: Risk/Reward is seriously broke - or: "Brawling is for chumps".
« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2010, 06:22:52 PM »
NARC/Tbolt: NARC sniping isn't all that easy, though if you're sitting still you're asking for it. This particularly applies to AA running active radar while being stationary: as a Tbolter, my BHP lets me detect you 250m beyond where you can detect me, at which point I can line up a shot, choose to go passive on approach, etc. Also beware that AC fire streams tell me where you are so that even if I can't detect or see you, I can still aim at the muzzle flash and score hits. Use zoom x1 and scan the skies if you're running AA. If an Aero lines up on you, don't sit still unless you're sure you can down the Aero before he fires.

Aeros: Yes, landing is pretty tricky. A good AA will control the skies in a 1500m radius sphere around it, ignoring terrain obstructions. Keep in mind that fbombers must, if they want to go for a close high-percentage drop, come in low enough to be shot. Keep in mind that the red stars and boxes tend to more or less form a stream of reinforcements all the way back to defensive turrets, meaning usually that someone will be able to take a potshot at you. JJ's can be a good fbomb counter, if you happen to notice an fbomber approaching. LRMs are not good AA -- they are mostly just a nuisance to aeros, forcing them to spin around (nauseatingly) for a bit.

LBLs: I don't know how MW PvP LBL balance was, but I can tell you that I notice quite often the highest-scoring players on servers playing pretty much exclusively LBL Novacats, forsaking heavier chassis. Even on a hot map like Inferno.

Gauss: Limiting gauss ammo doesn't make sense to me from a physical perspective, as the weapon derives its power not from the weight of the round so much as from the speed at which the projectile travels. To make them less useful in-close, a moderate reduction to RoF would suffice, and perhaps be reasonable for long-range snipers to suffer. A less sensical but perhaps more entertaining solution might be to add a charge-up delay to the shot -- I would suggest something giving the target time to respond -- say, to mash X -- except that with lag I would expect that even a one-second indicator would arrive at precisely the moment when the gauss round strikes your Mech. But perhaps that charge-up time would only compound lag-warp issues (particularly if they actually managed to change speed significantly in response).

LRM camping: I find it to be incredibly boring and rather ineffective against someone aware to their threat (other than preventing me from going certain places and fighting certain ways) -- but they are also easy to use and good against people who do not really know how to avoid them. I speculate this causes newbie to join mod, get destroyed repeatedly by LRM campers, become an LRM camper themself, find this to be insanely boring and not at all what they were hoping for from the mod, and thus quit the mod. Though there may be some demoralizing effect in, say, being destroyed by a (more experienced) pilot while in an AA that is claimed to be overpowered -- but as they start to try to fly, they will consistently be destroyed by average AA. But I suppose that's a fundamental problem for any PvP game... shrug. Some way of knowing what the other player is doing that you are doing wrong (without wording it as such!) might help a lot. The "killcam" idea, I guess -- though how and in what form, I don't know. (Maybe loading screen tips?  :-\ With references to the wiki strategy articles???)

(LRM PB: Maybe a minimum arming range on those LRMs? I don't know; allowing the PB LRM salvo has its pluses and minuses.)
« Last Edit: April 15, 2010, 06:31:47 PM by Threesan »

Offline 7.[WD]Ragor

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Re: Risk/Reward is seriously broke - or: "Brawling is for chumps".
« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2010, 06:43:59 PM »
(...)
Gauss: Limiting gauss ammo doesn't make sense to me from a physical perspective, as the weapon derives its power not from the weight of the round so much as from the speed at which the projectile travels.
(...)
In nearly everything I agree with you. But the 'doesn't make sense to me from a physical/realistic perspective'-argument really (sorry) annoys the crap out of me.
Yes, you are right with your point. But bailing out as a full suited BA is ok? LRM-20 reloading same fast like LRM-5 is ok? HG firing while jumping is ok? Radar through hills is realistic? UAC firing double shots? A dozens of tons machine comes to a full stop after jj?

(sorry, wasn't meant personal, just the points which are in my twisted world absolut nonsense and no one cares and nearly no one argues 'that can't be')

Anyway, just my opinion.