I feel AA as it currently exists is a pointless mechanic

[Aposiopesis]

That is not to say I oppose aeros/vtols being shot down or even weapons that are more effective than others vs them.

I'm also aware there will be changes in the next version; this isn't regarding that.

Rather, it's the idea of certain weapons getting a bonus vs 'light armor' which I protest. These weapons, to my knowledge, are currently: AC2s and 5s, RAC2s and 5s, and MGs. Now, I can certainly see the rationalization here. Why were these weapons given bonuses against aircraft? Because their rapid fire nature makes them more usable against aircraft. Therein lies the problem: These weapons, by the very nature of their rapid firing mechanic, are already ideal anti-aircraft weapons. They do not need a damage bonus to further distinguish them from other weapons in this role. In fact, this creates another weapon: a further gap in power between 'anti-air' weapons and 'other' weapons. It's this power gap that makes other weapons seem (to some) relatively useless against aircraft, thus making (to these same people) having very powerful dedicated anti-air weapons all the more necessary.

Eliminating the damage bonus vs 'light armor' altogether allows aircraft to be given the necessary fragility to be sufficiently vulnerable to 'normal' weapons so as to give your mech pilot with a standard loadout a feeling that he has at least a chance to defend himself. On the other hand, if you make these weapons that are dedicated super high power against air targets specifically, you have to boost armor enough where other weapons feel vastly inferior and quite ineffective against these targets, or you have to decrease the firepower of said anti-air weapons where they're useless for anything but. In addition to eliminating this mechanic, you allow said weapons to be boosted in such a way as to have uses against other targets as well. Even without the boost, these are still the ideal weapons to shoot aircraft.

Furthermore, this should be considered: Why does a vehicle with the following properties need a dedicated counter of a power which no other assets in the game specifically have to deal with?

--Aeros are niche vehicles with a relatively small dedicated player base
--They're the most difficult vehicles to learn to use to some effect, most particularly with direct fire weapons
--They're the most unforgiving vehicles as well, running into any number of objects is your doom, a moment's inattention is your doom, and shutting down is by far a more severe situation than for other assets

If your answer is 'thunderbolts and LRMs' then the Shiva B and Sulla B need to be looked at (I'm of the belief both do). Very few people in this game can use the gauss, laser, etc versions of the aircraft to the same effect as a similarly priced mech (though it is possible as I am quite capable of it myself), however, dedicated anti-air weapons make using the overpowered variants the only attractive choice. They further only discourage other players from learning how to make strafing runs and using direct fire weapons from the air, which in turn leads to more aerial missile boat spam, which in turn leads to people bitching about aircraft and wanting AA buffs which ultimately only further encourage the use of the boats over the other options.

LBX is the only asset to which I would consider implementing a bonus against light armor, due to the nature of its spread and its single shot mechanic.

It is my proposition, then, that the light armor AA mechanic as it currently exists be removed altogether (save for LBX), with the overpowered air variants also being corrected to reflect this change, so that aero players have the durability and ability to be able to enjoy the thrill and challenge of mastering direct fire weapons, rather than the quite more stale and cheesy feeling overpowered missiles from space spam.

[7.[WD]Ragor]

Regarding 0.2.0, agree 100%. But its difficult to balance, at 0.1.0 one aero could ruin the game/fun for 10 other player (other team), at 0.2.0 ASF are nearly dead-by-taking-off units.

[Aposiopesis]

Regarding 0.2.0, agree 100%. But its difficult to balance, at 0.1.0 one aero could ruin the game/fun for 10 other player (other team), at 0.2.0 ASF are nearly dead-by-taking-off units.

This isn't really regarding the severe overpoweredness of certain weapons in 0.2.0, but rather, about challenging the entire premise of the light armor/AA mechanic. The 0.1.0 problem was one that should have been rectified by a decrease in firepower, more a decrease in certain types of firepower, rather than creating an I win mechanic to counter the preexisting I win mechanic.

If dedicated AA units exist which have a very limited utility vs other units (read: weapons that get a bonus vs one type of armor but only perform with mediocrity [in terms of cost:benefit] vs other units), the only reason people will ever take AA units is if they are sufficiently powerful enough (as compared to other forms of weaponry) to render airpower useless, or at the very least largely ineffective.  On the other hand, if the power gap between 'AA' and other weapons is sufficiently small ("I use this weapon vs aeros because it shoots faster"), then aircraft can be made with the appropriate (read: limited) durability so air and (non-boat/non-LT) ground units can be effective vs eachother, and weapons with good AA properties can have sufficient stats so as to make them effective in other roles as well.


My prediction for the next version is as follows, if this mechanic still exists within it and the overpowered aircraft variants still exist as well:

1. AA is still too powerful for inexperienced or average air users to deal with, thus creating a scenario in which only a few very talented pilots can thrive (and furthermore, a scenario in which it's very difficult for anyone to learn to fly in a pug setting)
2. Air units have had an armor buff, thus making normal weapons rather ineffective against them (I feel the 0.2.0 damage rates of normal weapons vs aeros about right), resulting in people bitching about aeros
3. AA has been nerfed to a degree at which, while they're still the most effective weapon vs aeros, they're not so effective as to make them a worthwhile investment as compared to other units. This will result in bitching as well as noone will play AA.
4. If the overpowered air units still exist with either option #2 or option #3, it'll look like 0.1.0 again. If they do not exist with option #1, air will be as scarce and useless as 0.2.0

People are always going to bitch on either side if they happen to be on the short end of a stick on a bad day. However, I have a sinking feeling that the balance of aeros in 0.2.0 has been geared towards the Sulla B and Shiva B, rather than having these aircraft balanced to the rest. If anti air power is indeed geared towards the power of these 2 units, the majority of aircraft will still remain largely useless.

This is one of those scenarios in which I would greatly enjoy being wrong.

[Taemien]

An ASF should be able to go head to head against any AA it encounters. It should not be able to ignore said asset. If its getting hit by AA, the pilot should have a second or two (at most) to take evasive measures and then engage the the offender. At that point it should be based on who's better off. In this case if the AA is positioned properly at that given moment, he should win. If not he should lose. If the ASF totally breaks off and comes at a different angle the AA should position himself accordingly.

This isn't the case right now. But if we can get it there, then the assets should be balanced. ASF should have a chance against AA to the point if they kill it, then get some breathing room to devastate the other team. But if they ignore the AA they die, plain and simple.

[Virt]

Or, you could just pilot Mechs, given it's a Mechwarrior game.    (Yeah yeah, I know, it's a combined arms game, so I guess you're allowed to play Hawx if you want to.)

However, the way you were floating/warping around on BOSS yesterday safely out of weapon range, then dropping in and killing hapless mechs trying to engage in battle below, was just bloody annoying.  The rest of us didn't want to be forced to spend the whole match in a Partisan AA dealing with you.   

As for the "it's really hard" complaint... well yeah, it's also really hard trying to engage with other Mechs, while some supergnat continually spams LRMs at you from a distance, weakening your armour to the point where your real Mech opponent can win the tussle.   So let's cry twin rivers, flyboy.

Given you ended the round with one of the highest scores on your team, I don't see how you can claim that aeros are at a disadvantage.

[Aposiopesis]

Or, you could just pilot Mechs, given it's a Mechwarrior game.    (Yeah yeah, I know, it's a combined arms game, so I guess you're allowed to play Hawx if you want to.)

However, the way you were floating/warping around yesterday safely out of weapon range, then dropping in and killing hapless mechs trying to engage in battle below, was just bloody annoying for the rest of us.

As for the "it's really hard" complaint... well yeah, it's also really hard trying to engage with other Mechs, while some supergnat spams LRMs at you from a distance.

Given you ended the round with one of the highest scores on your team, I don't see how you can claim that aeros are at a disadvantage.

And in conclusion: cry me a river, flyboy.

Really annoying for you, perhaps. However, keep in mind that with a fluctuation between the 2nd and top score on my team, I still only had 8 kills 50 minutes in. That's doing pretty well as a non tbolt/non LRM ASF. Using direct fire weapons from ASFs is the single most difficult skill in the game, and takes a lot of work. Even while being difficult to engage, your team still managed 5 solid kills on me all with non-AA weapons. Lasers, PPCs, hell, one guy even popped me with an hgauss at an angle (which I find both amusing and awesome, and I commend the players with the skill to do so).

On the other hand, I could've been riding around in a Novaboat or Poptard Mk2 and been hanging around with a safe kill/death ratio of 25/3 (and frankly, there are people that can do a lot better than that in mechs on the Boss server; that's not even that impressive of a number), and not only would that be lame as all hell for the other team, I find it boring as all hell myself. The ASF is much more of a challenge and to me, since I have the proper equipment, much more rewarding in a 'fun' perspective as well, even if I'm not as effective as I would be in a mech or even a vee. That 50 minutes of AA-free MWLL was some of the most fun I've had in the game in a while, and certainly more than I would've had 'pwning noobs' or what have you in some boat mech.

I only picked up the LRM and Tbolts in the last 20-25 minutes where some goobers decided to pick up partyvans, in which case those admittedly quite overpowered air assets are the only half-viable option (and still require way more caution than playing any sort of mech or vehicle asset). Sorry about that, but until the overpowered assets are gone from both sides (AA and ASF variants), it's sometimes gonna be a cheese war. Then again, mech combat isn't that much different when you have 10 people using the same overtonned mech variant at the start with one guy maybe taking the gauss kit fox instead and another guy taking an Owens B.

The point you miss in your 4th line is that, even with the high score I had at the end, it's nothing near as capable as what I myself or many others are of with a mech or to a lesser extent even a tank in a similar price range. Meanwhile, I can die in less than 3 seconds and sometimes without even realization I'm being engaged by an asset that costs half that of a Shiva. This is coming from someone who, if I had to take a guess at my own flight time, is probably in the top 3 in aero experience in 0.2.0... only because I'm stubborn to the point of being suicidal at times about flying aeros even with partisans around, as some here can no doubt attest to. ASFs are undeniably the most difficult asset in the game to make a contribution with even before people take AA vehicles, and I tip my hat to anyone I ever see doing well in them. fapp, I'd be ecstatic to see someone flying a gauss Shiva manage to take my mech out just because it would be different. If winning is my priority, and I have to choose between an enemy that'll go 25/3 and 150k+ points, or 8/5 with 95k points in a more annoying manner.. give me the more annoying one every time. They're a lot less common, anyhow.

Final note: It's a Battletech game, not just a Mechwarrior game. Be happy this isn't pure Battletech; ASFs are practically flying mechs in durability under those rules  (and frankly, I don't want to see it that way, either; I'm also just not a fan of 'I win' assets).

[[MPB]OM_Sannyasi]

aa units are not going to be removed from the game

[Aposiopesis]

aa units are not going to be removed from the game

Nor do I want them removed.

[KingLeerUK]

I tried to read all of this, but about 1/3 the way through I remembered that we would be releasing 0.3.0 in a relatively short time span, so much if not all of this will be moot based on the sheer number of changes that are going to happen.

[Aposiopesis]

I tried to read all of this, but about 1/3 the way through I remembered that we would be releasing 0.3.0 in a relatively short time span, so much if not all of this will be moot based on the sheer number of changes that are going to happen.

I have to admit, I am sort of digging deep looking for things to talk about while I wait for the next release to test, but I do have to admit I think the light armor damage bonus is an entirely unnecessary mechanic when the weapons that get said bonus already have an inherent bonus against aircraft, and there are units dedicated to boating these particular weapons (AA vehicles) that mount a number of these weapons. Of course, if the entire mechanic has completely changed in the next version, this is indeed all moot, but hey, I have a limited taste for Toast

[HAARP]

Or, you could just pilot Mechs, given it's a Mechwarrior game.    (Yeah yeah, I know, it's a combined arms game, so I guess you're allowed to play Hawx if you want to.)

However, the way you were floating/warping around on BOSS yesterday safely out of weapon range, then dropping in and killing hapless mechs trying to engage in battle below, was just bloody annoying.  The rest of us didn't want to be forced to spend the whole match in a Partisan AA dealing with you.   

Ah, one of the mech-only jocks. Hi! Gonna start whining when I go Elemental on Inferno?

[Virt]

I shall relish once again rendering you into a red smear.

[Deathbane]

its ok HAARP. This trueborn will join you, if only to prove how incompetant inner sphere pilots really are.

AlsoAs for AA, i just think its a damage at range thing mostly. If the tanks didnt have such absurd firing ranges, nobody would complain about the amount of damage theyd do.

[(TLL) Heretic]

*snip* if only to prove how incompetant inner sphere pilots really are.
*snip*

Must be the reason why every nugget jumps on the Clan side as soon as a pub game starts, pssht I don't even touch the clan machines, they're the noob tubes of MWLL   (disclaimer: I get forced into a gauss Mad Dog because there's nothing nice on the IS side in that money bracket..where'd my demo go? Its how much???)

@Apo, be careful what you wish for!  I remember bitching at King Leer page after page in about 3 threads after 0.1, claiming that the AA guns needed changing, and now the balance is too much the other way...not saying I had anything to do with that, or claiming that my bitching made any difference or whatever, just saying be careful for what you wish for 'cause it might come true. 

As a general rule, I'm with you on the dislike of new concepts being forced into the existing BTU, "Light Armour" and the "Heavy Machine gun"(AKA AC2&5) being chief amongst the offenders, it has turned the Mauler from my favourite Assault into a pop-gun platform to the extent that I almost never use my favourite 'mech, this makes me a sad panda.

I would have preferred AC2s and 5s doing the same damage against all targets, not making them purely AA weapons (ergo useless for anything other than AA and balance via rock, paper, scissors, which is NOT how the BTU does things). The scuttlebutt is that one of the key reasons for this change to the BT mechanic was the Partisan being so deadly against light 'mechs....and so the nerf of the AC5 to a purely AA weapon and the creation of the "light Armour" class, which IMHO is new IP as I cannot find an equivalent in CBT.

I would have rather seen the cost of the Partisan raised to 60-70K (its an Assault tank after all, it SHOULD destroy lights in seconds, as it's meant to be pumping out the same dps as an AC20 at much greater range) and not have the time-tested CBT mechanisms messed around with. The knock-on domino effect has left me Mauler Primeless

But hey, it's only 0.2 and things are still being played around with, so lets wait and see.

[Taemien]

Jagermech.... do it!