Heat

[(TLL) Heretic]

@Sky_walker, actually, what I'm advocating is the removal of all coolant as it's currently implemented, so no free collant reserve on any 'mech, ever.

The thing about Battletech is that heat is a critical factor, and can't just be dismissed at the press of a button, the number of heat sinks on a chassis is as essential as speed, armour & weapons, there's no "Flush" option in a Battletech, it's arcade action fun that we would be better without.

The Coolant pod from CBT, would enable mediums like the ShadowCat to carry 2 Large Pulse lasers and 2 coolant pods, firing the lasers 'till the 'mech hits the mid line, then turning on the pods, one after another to boost your heat dissipation, to help keep you firing near constantly (rather than simply removing the heat instantly at a button).  Drawback would be that you would have to give up podspace (therefore weapons)  to be able to mount the pods, and they explode when hit, doing some damage).

So I'm pro coolant, but anti flush.  The flushing idea is a little silly ('mechs pissing themselves? It's meant to be a sealed system), whereas a Heat Sink booster seems a lot more probable, and better for gameplay.

@FD & Sky_walker, on regeneration of the coolant; the pods are just a huge compressor (like you'd find in your fridge or freezer), it's a property of the gas that it's cold when liquid, so recharging the colant is not a problem in cannon.  It does not need extra coolant, just time to compress the stuff on hand.

That being said, I see no reason that in the interest of balance and gameplay the coolant pod could not be limited to say 5, 4 second heat sink boosts (enabling you to burn through the 2 pods in the example in one glorious 40 seconds of heat sink boost) with recharge on repair/buy like ammo, I just don't think that it would make things play better than a slow recharging system that you can only gain benefit from in short bursts.

[(TLL)Sky_walker]

So I'm pro coolant, but anti flush.  The flushing idea is a little silly ('mechs pissing themselves? It's meant to be a sealed system), whereas a Heat Sink booster seems a lot more probable, and better for gameplay.

It might be silly but that's the way BT describes coolant pods - as sarna.net says:

compressed freon which can be flushed directly into the attached 'Mechs coolant system,

It's not pissing on mech but like... replacing the hot coolant with cold one.



I'm all for removing the coolant by default and adding it as a feature, but only if it will come with destroyable coolant pods which damage the units.

Also the consideration of HS heavy designs having coolant pods too beneficial is still valid

[Naethryn]

If its any indication of my lack of skill with lasers (all types and sizes) I always think the heat threshhold is way too low.......guess if you actually have skill, you can kill stuff with lasers....sigh, didnt know that >.<

I think that if you are in danger of overheating, and are out of coolant, you can unzip and pee on the reactor to cool it off

[Flyingdebris]

i think i get it now.

Heretic's pod idea is not describing a coolant system that evaporates its coolant when doing a flush,  But one that recycles it.  and it also justifies exactly why you'd mount the pods externally.

attaching diagram.  i think the idea here is that  coolant pods are kept seperated from the normal coolant supply and kept  outside of the mech to help keep them cool, and also are refridgerated.  When a flush is being done. Cold fresh pod coolant is added to the present coolant circulation, while hot  coolant is pumped into the pod.  The hot coolant that is pumped into the pod is eventually cooled and processed, and ready to be used after a certain amount of time.

it makes a lot more sense too because if dumping fresh coolant into the system is causing it to evaporate, then your original coolant supply should have been gone too.



So yeah, i'm thinking, make a flush use itself up entirely, no gradual use (to avoid people slightly bumping themselves just below critical heat) only full blast is allowed.  Instead of magically causing heat to go away, it just increases heat efficiency, for lets say 8 seconds or so.  However to use it again  you have to wait till the hot coolant that was pumped into the pods is chilled and repressurized or whatever.  Have that take about 2 minutes.

Mounting more pods halves the waiting time.

mechs do not have cooling pods by default, they have to be added

they cause significant damage when they go kablooey, and should also lower heat efficiency a bit on a mech when they go, since there would naturally be some kind of secondary damage to the mech's coolant circulation system as a result of a pod exploding.

Meanwhile mechs like the nova cat need to lose some HS, cause right now they are way overweight.




[attachment deleted by admin]

[HAARP]

Nice illustration FD, I could live with that.


What about exploding heatsinks when they get too hot?

[Flyingdebris]

Well, i don't think they should pop when they get too hot, since they are designed to get hot as hell.  But i would like to see them as something that is targetable.  Or even better, nailing a functional heatsink with Flamers or infernos or whatever should deal bonus heat, since you are pumping the heat directly into the cooling system rather than radiating it through the hull.

[(TLL) Heretic]

i think i get it now.

Heretic's pod idea is not describing a coolant system that evaporates its coolant when doing a flush,  But one that recycles it.  and it also justifies exactly why you'd mount the pods externally.

attaching diagram.  i think the idea here is that  coolant pods are kept seperated from the normal coolant supply and kept  outside of the mech to help keep them cool, and also are refridgerated.  When a flush is being done. Cold fresh pod coolant is added to the present coolant circulation, while hot  coolant is pumped into the pod.  The hot coolant that is pumped into the pod is eventually cooled and processed, and ready to be used after a certain amount of time.

it makes a lot more sense too because if dumping fresh coolant into the system is causing it to evaporate, then your original coolant supply should have been gone too.



So yeah, i'm thinking, make a flush use itself up entirely, no gradual use (to avoid people slightly bumping themselves just below critical heat) only full blast is allowed.  Instead of magically causing heat to go away, it just increases heat efficiency, for lets say 8 seconds or so.  However to use it again  you have to wait till the hot coolant that was pumped into the pods is chilled and repressurized or whatever.  Have that take about 2 minutes.

Mounting more pods halves the waiting time.

mechs do not have cooling pods by default, they have to be added

they cause significant damage when they go kablooey, and should also lower heat efficiency a bit on a mech when they go, since there would naturally be some kind of secondary damage to the mech's coolant circulation system as a result of a pod exploding.

Meanwhile mechs like the nova cat need to lose some HS, cause right now they are way overweight.

Thanks FD, that's exactly what I was trying to get at!

Had to applaud the diagram.

[(TLL)Sky_walker]

..and that's exactly the thing I pointed out:

compressed freon which can be flushed directly into the attached 'Mechs coolant system,

It's not pissing on mech but like... replacing the hot coolant with cold one.

Anyway, coming back to topic why the coolant pods in CBT formula promote the lasebroating:
Imagine that you have 2 kinds of coolants:

• Coolant that increases the efficiency of heatsinks
• Coolant that lowers the temperature (no matter of the HSinks amount)

The result would be as follows:

• Only HS heavy mechs find it worthy to waste tons on coolant pod - which mechs are HS heavy? The energy boats.
• All mechs benefit equally from coolant, meaning that Coolant pods work miracles on conventional weaponry mechs (which rarely have any noticeable amount of HS) allowing them to run away using MASC (which produces hevullah of heat on them), JJet when needed, or save their life when flamed / got hit by inferno grenade. Something like emergency support button they can buy while the additional HS on the weight of coolant pod wouldn't help them much (though the price is obvious - less overall heat efficiency for them, and big problems when coolant is out)

that's why I think adding Coolant which depends on Heat Sinks would only promote laser boats vs. other types of units. Poor way to make things better.

(though obviously lack of coolant on every mech is a good thing -
 what I discuss here is they way coolant should work)

[(TLL) Heretic]

.*snip*

• Only HS heavy mechs find it worthy to waste tons on coolant pod - which mechs are HS heavy? The energy boats.

We don't know that for a fact as there's no Mechlab yet.  Why just HS heavy designs? My little Owens B from 0.2 would do good removing the Mgun for a coolant pod, under the CBT style system I'd turn it on in circle fights to keep my MASC on without overheating.  Or my Bushy C, it would help to remove a mgun for a coolant pod (remove both and get a flamer as well).  So assuming it would be just for the energy boats benefit is a little short sighted.

• All mechs benefit equally from coolant, meaning that Coolant pods work miracles on conventional weaponry mechs (which rarely have any noticeable amount of HS) allowing them to run away using MASC (which produces hevullah of heat on them), JJet when needed, or save their life when flamed / got hit by inferno grenade.
  
  See above
  
  Something like emergency support button they can buy while the additional HS on the weight of coolant pod wouldn't help them much (though the price is obvious - less overall heat efficiency for them, and big problems when coolant is out)

that's why I think adding Coolant which depends on Heat Sinks would only promote laser boats vs. other types of units. Poor way to make things better.

The only real problem with energy weapons boating is in the alpha strike vs chain fired ratio; people like being able to alpha 6ERLLasers, but if they can do it 3-4 times they can kill anything with a hit-scan weapon, and that gets folks irate and takes the fun out of the Heat Management aspect of 'mech warfare. I think we're all agreed on that, and that's why there's not such a big "keep collant free for all" lobby.

Removing free coolant (and the NovaCats 10 extra tons of DHS ), means that those 6ERLarge need to start steady chain-firing immediately after alpha'd or the 'mech is in big trouble, is that too far? Probably a little.  We have the CBT style CPod, whats that mean?  The pilot alphas engages CPod and then immediately fires in groups of 2 or 3 ERLarge while the pod is active, then steadily chain-firing as the effect wears off.  A few moments later (20s after the effect has worn off?) the CPod is ready to go again.  Downside? That CPod 'mech is using up weapons pod space for a piece of equipment (so it'd be a 5ERLarge Boat). Upside?  The pilot can fire those weapons at greater intensity for short bursts of time; and the short bursts also help no extra HS builds use MASC and abuse JJs silly

On another thought, the coolant pod could even have an ammo level if required, fluff it as wear on the condenser due to the hot coolant intake, so coolant resupply at APC would be possible, and destruction of the CPod while empty gets no explosion and the thing would have a recycle rate (it's condensing a cold coolant supply).
 

(though obviously lack of coolant on every mech is a good thing -
 what I discuss here is they way coolant should work)

[HAARP]

IMO coolant pods shouldn't recharge on their own. I still consider this retarded, it's not canon and prone to abuse. I guess I could live with it if only a single one is carried that is recharged not sooner than a minute after firing. But 20 seconds would kinda defeat the purpose of heat management, and the best way to handle this is to simply make them one-shot equipment of which several can be carried that needs to be bought in a hangar. (or maybe an APC, making it a coolant truck aswell?)
Remember, cpods exist for the a single, extra "kick" during a battle or for emergencies, not to cycle them every few seconds.

[(TLL)Sky_walker]

The only real problem with energy weapons boating is in the alpha strike vs chain fired ratio; people like being able to alpha 6ERLLasers, but if they can do it 3-4 times they can kill anything with a hit-scan weapon, and that gets folks irate and takes the fun out of the Heat Management aspect of 'mech warfare. I think we're all agreed on that, and that's why there's not such a big "keep collant free for all" lobby.

You misunderstood. It's not about how people shoot weapons but about putting energy-heavy Mechs in an advantage. They can manipulate heat to much much higher degree thanks to Coolant than the non-HS-heavy designs do. And that's what sux cause they already have huge heat problems.

Mech having high heat dispresion are not these who need even more heat dispersion. These having it low could use help from Coolant Pods.

Removing free coolant (and the NovaCats 10 extra tons of DHS ), (...long story about this how HS work)

Eee... but what new to the discoussion it brings? Cause I have no idea... all what you said here was said already before. So: Yes, we do know how coolant pods work like.

so coolant resupply at APC would be possible,

Nope, we don't want the APCs being ultimate support unit in a size of hangar bay. These are Armored Personnel Carriers. Not Coolant Trucks

and destruction of the CPod while empty gets no explosion and the thing would have a recycle rate (it's condensing a cold coolant supply).

According to what FlyingDebire painted - there's no moment when CPod is empty (cause it just exchanges hot coolant with cold in a closed system)

Cold fresh pod coolant is added to the present coolant circulation, while hot  coolant is pumped into the pod.  The hot coolant that is pumped into the pod is eventually cooled and processed, and ready to be used after a certain amount of time.

IMO coolant pods shouldn't recharge on their own.

+1

[Flyingdebris]

another thing that would help keep things balanced..

Assuming we are talking increased HS efficiency type C-pods, instead of flat out heatkiller like we have now, the clan energy boats and clan mechs in general (cough cough novacat) would only be getting half the benefit of the coolant than the single heatsink IS designs.  And it would probably have to sacrificce weapons or HS to fit one on.  but at the same time would have the same risk of getting the pod shot up as the IS mechs.

So i think

-give the pod meaningful weight (more so than canon, that shit was way too light yo,)
-using pods gives 8 seconds of increased HS efficiency
-give it a 2 minute recycle time, more pods reduces this
-doubles IS heat efficiency/ increases by half again, clan heat efficiency
-give it a moderately sized detonation upon destruction that deals similar damage to back and L/R torsos like the gauss capacitor explosions.  (overall feedback damage to cooling systems should drop heat efficiency 20% after that)

[(TLL) Heretic]

another thing that would help keep things balanced..

Assuming we are talking increased HS efficiency type C-pods, instead of flat out heatkiller like we have now, the clan energy boats and clan mechs in general (cough cough novacat) would only be getting half the benefit of the coolant than the single heatsink IS designs.  And it would probably have to sacrificce weapons or HS to fit one on.  but at the same time would have the same risk of getting the pod shot up as the IS mechs.

So i think

-give the pod meaningful weight (more so than canon, that shit was way too light yo,)
-using pods gives 8 seconds of increased HS efficiency
-give it a 2 minute recycle time, more pods reduces this
-doubles IS heat efficiency/ increases by half again, clan heat efficiency
-give it a moderately sized detonation upon destruction that deals similar damage to back and L/R torsos like the gauss capacitor explosions.  (overall feedback damage to cooling systems should drop heat efficiency 20% after that)

With you on all this FD.

Only one thought, the cannon does not differentiate between Clan and IS tech, only single or double HS IIRC.  The Clans simply don't use single HS designs as they are obsolete to them, and a LOT of IS 'mechs in the 3060+ have switched to double HS too (can't recall if we have any DHS IS machines in MWLL, but it's quite common in the game era).

Will have to check in the purchase screen but I thought we had the Awesome 9Q in the game: AWS-9Q - A basic upgrade of the 8Q, the 9Q Awesome upgrades the heat sinks to double heat sinks and reduces the number of them to nineteen. The saved weight is used to add a fourth PPC to the 'Mech as well as a Guardian ECM Suite. BV (1.0) = 1,623, BV (2.0) = 1,875

@HAARP. yeah 20 seconds would probably be too fast a minute or more would probably be better. 2 minutes as FD suggests is a little too long for it to be useful for MASC hit'n'runs IMO.

@Sky_walker, I hear what your saying about helping energy builds, but right now the present coolant system negates heat management totally and helps energy builds more than what I am suggesting.  Take coolant out completely and people will scream that energy only builds are being nerfed, if they get a choice to add a CPod for some benefit, paying for it in weapons pod space and tonnage then we should be alright.

[(TLL)Sky_walker]

@Sky_walker, I hear what your saying about helping energy builds, but right now the present coolant system negates heat management totally and helps energy builds more than what I am suggesting.  Take coolant out completely and people will scream that energy only builds are being nerfed, if they get a choice to add a CPod for some benefit, paying for it in weapons pod space and tonnage then we should be alright.

people won't be able to add Cpod because there's no MechLab.

So I think fair solution till then would be just to modify various variants of Mechs in the way people would always be able to pick between heavy energy boat or cooler energy boat (more gunz or coolant pods).

Also the matter HOW the coolant will work is something entirely different I think we both agree that current system is far from ideal, though HOW they will work, and that's the CBT way isn't perfect is another matter.

[Flyingdebris]

Well, the only reason i kinda simplified the idea it to working at higher efficiency for IS than clan is because right now we really don't have any clear difference between single and double heatsinks, all we have right now is just generic heatsinks for everyone.

that and well, if we actually stick to cbt rules, pretty much non of the clan omnimechs mechs aside from secondliners that i don't think we have any yet, would be able to use the pods.

so just making generalizations based off of generalizations we have already.