Clan vs IS Mode Servers - Asset Balance

[dCK-Ad_Hominem]

I actually use JJ quite often on mirage, marshes, frostbite and sandblasted. They come in especially handy when being around obstacles like the small towns on Mirage. Easy to get in, kill a weak target and get out again. Heat is most definitely an issue that should be adressed and I tend to go as far as to deny energy boats JJs + firing an alphastrike without suicide. They have quite some good combat potential, the key is NOT to use their entire potential, but just the amount you need. They came in handy on my scat when facing an enemy MKII. Jumped over him, fired, fired, fired and killed him then. For close combat use they are good to evade enemy fire, yet one has to have the right timing in order to be moving again once the enemy has turned around.

[DFDelta]

I am not sure of that, because I never use jump capable mechs, but if you hold shift before and while jumping, you jump in a flat arc and straight in a horizontal line. Or am I mistaken here?

The choice to jump in a forward or an upward direction is all you need, or do you really want to control the direction of your jump down to a single degree?

[Frostiken]

Jumped over him, fired, fired, fired and killed him then.

I refuse to believe that story about the SCat / MK2 - the aiming angles doesn't work (jumpjetting 'over' a MK2 means he can bring all his weapons to bear directly on your CT - jumping over a mech is pretty much the worst thing tactically you can do - furthermore while you can generally aim down farther than you can aim up, the SCat can't aim down that far that would allow you to 'fire fire fire' while midflight while the MK2 somehow cannot return fire). Also JJs don't allow you to turn whatsoever and the SCat doesn't have 360 torso twist so therefore it'd be almost impossible to get an attack of opportunity on his rear. He just turns around while you're in-flight and I guarantee you by the time you land and start moving again he would have been able to turn all the way around - even at full throttle with 90 degree torso twist he will be able to shoot YOUR rear torso long before you can shoot his. Finally, circle-strafing is pretty popular tactic and, while it has many flaws, there is one advantage - there's nothing you can do with jumpjets in a circle strafe fight. Your opponent will just pause and shoot you out of the sky.

For close combat use they are good to evade enemy fire, yet one has to have the right timing in order to be moving again once the enemy has turned around.

What kind of fire? At close ranges (less than 150 meters) the only weapon that has a projectile slow enough to even BEGIN to dodge is the UAC20 and even that's a stretch. Jumpjetting can somewhat surprise them but only the greenest of newbs would have his aim affected by your slow, gradual ascent. SRMs may also mostly hit your legs due to the angles involved, but that's another point - jumpjetting in close quarters is a good way to have a leg instantly removed - they loock in place making them extrmeely easy to hit with precision.


TLDR - I don't buy it. Anecdotal evidence at best, gross exagerrations more like it. If you have video proof of either of these things I"ll happily retract my statement but color me skeptical. My fav mech is the Shadowcats and extensive jumpjet use of all kinds has never yeilded me results that were both satisfactory *AND* consistent enough to warrant their use. Every now and then a rare thing happens and I'm successful with a neat trick but these are the exceptions, not the rule.

The choice to jump in a forward or an upward direction is all you need, or do you really want to control the direction of your jump down to a single degree?

I'd like jumping to be more like jumping and less like an simulation of apollo 11.

[dCK-Ad_Hominem]

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You read more into a story than there is.... I didn't mention at all I hit him in the rear or any of your other fantasies. I approached him and dodged his first salvo by jumping over him just silghtly. As a result I made ground contact very fast and was able to reaccelarate whereas the other guy had to break his MKII from full throttle to close combat speed. Also am I not saying that JJing is something to do a lot in a brawl, you can evade enemy fire by guessing that the enemy will fire in about a moment or two or simply buy yourself some more life time till your allies arrive.

I do not have fraps and I do believe my credibility to be high enough without having to capture a proof of any situation I am talking about, let alone a rare one like this...

[Frostiken]

I do not have fraps and I do believe my credibility to be high enough without having to capture a proof of any situation I am talking about, let alone a rare one like this...

Exactly my point. A piece of gear that does something awesome for you 5% of the time while being a liability or just a utility at best the rest of the time isn't worth it and should be reevaluated. I could tell you a story about my machine guns blowing up an atlas, that doesn't mean machine guns are worth a damn in an anti-mech role. It means I got lucky, or the Atlas was almost dead, or I was mistaken, or the atlas pilot was AFK, etc.

You agree taht it was a 'freak' situation which means it rarely happens, so why bring it up as some kind of justification for how OMGWTFBBQ awesome jumpjets are?

The value of gear is how it performs consistently. A standard Mk82 'dumb bomb' might, through a crazy set of factors, hit a mountain, cause a landslide, destabilizing a magma bubble, causing a volcanic eruption and destroying dozens of towns. Does that make the weapon a weapon of mass destruction?

Given how incredibly hot and heavy jumpjets are as well as how the game is EASILY played without really missing them (they are useful for getting unstuck though), mechlab means the first thing I do with the current jumpjets is rip them off and laugh at everyone still using them.

[dCK-Ad_Hominem]

I do not have fraps and I do believe my credibility to be high enough without having to capture a proof of any situation I am talking about, let alone a rare one like this...

Exactly my point. A piece of gear that does something awesome for you 5% of the time while being a liability or just a utility at best the rest of the time isn't worth it and should be reevaluated.

True, this is a "freal situation" as you call it, you make one mistake, if you will, in your arguing though. A components worth is not alone measured by its standard use, but also by its potential. Don't get me wrong, I too will strip those off some chassis once mechlab is out and I do not use them very often. Still they are a nice bonus often times and when used correctly give a lot of opportunity to pursue, ambush or even trap an enemy.

[Frostiken]

I do not have fraps and I do believe my credibility to be high enough without having to capture a proof of any situation I am talking about, let alone a rare one like this...

Exactly my point. A piece of gear that does something awesome for you 5% of the time while being a liability or just a utility at best the rest of the time isn't worth it and should be reevaluated.

True, this is a "freal situation" as you call it, you make one mistake, if you will, in your arguing though. A components worth is not alone measured by its standard use, but also by its potential.

A good point, I agree! Kudos for you BUT! Potential means realistically attainable and thus, with enough skill, a master would be able to achieve consistent results across the board. Luck should have little play in it because that's not potential, that's luck. JJs now, in combat, are an exercise in luck more than anything. So many factors come into play - how far away you are, what direction you're moving in, what shape the terrain is, how tall the mechs are, how much heat you can soak - that to achieve a consistent result in terms of dodging fire and tactical combat positioning that it's, well, a freak occurance when the planets align and something advantageous happens. An example is large lasers. They are pixel-perfect accurate and have high range. A novice player won't be able to do much with that except hurt dudes, an expert will be able to consistently separate limbs from their owners. Since that's something that can be done with consistency, it should be factored into laser balance. That potential maxes out by melting a pilot in one shot at 900m

In terms of consistency, JJs have three purposes - Getting unstuck from things, getting on top of objects, and bomb/LRM evasion (the former moreso than the latter - depending on the approach of the missiles, especially if you don't know them, JJing can be detrimental). The fourth purpose, poptarting, was pretty much removed so even if you don't like poptarting you have to admit that they did lose SOME puropose. I honestly wish I could say I've even seen someone use JJs in a way against me that put me at a disadvantage, caused me to miss shots, etc - but the best I can say is that sometimes at really close ranges, my SRMs would hit them in the legs while they were using JJs. That's not really impressive though.

[Squibby]

I wouldn't say poptarting is completely out of the question now, It's still more than possible to jump and shoot on the decent, not quite as dangerous as it used to be but still quite usefull for taking a cheapshot at something. Of course you are in the air for longer so it has it's inherent risks.

I agree otherwise that JJs in their current implementation are just useless in any close combat situation. Use them and you've just spiked your heat into the red, made yourself a nice visible slow moving target and when you land you're just a sitting duck in those agonising seconds before you start moving again.

Absolutely useless in a brawl.

Even in normal situations they can sometimes feel rather gutless and never seem to burn long enough to actually jump up to high ground (i.e. the bridges on thunderrift). This may be symptomatic of that annoying situation where your foot gets 'stuck' in the terrain mesh essentially killing your jump.

[xInVicTuSx]

JJs will get you where you want to go some of the time vertically and they can dodge Arrows and LRMs.
In a brawl however they add maneuverability comparable to a slinky going upstairs, which then bursts into flames when it moves.
Best use of JJs on light and medium mechs though, getting home after being legged, cant tell ya how many times I've been able to frog hop home quite quickly in a legged Osiris, something you just cannot do in an Owens.   

[(TLL)Siilk]

  The more I read your posts, Frostiken, the more I become sure you lack even basic skills. Most problems you have with weapons or equipment comes not from those things being badly implemented but from your inability to use them properly. Seriously, man, play MWLL regularly for at least for a month or so, get some kills, be at least GC in every game you play and then rethink your ideas.

 JJs are good for:

 * Getting to otherwise inaccessible places.
 * Overcoming obstacles.
 * Quickly getting behind cover.
 * Escaping mech going critical nearby.
 * Poptarting -- yes it's more than usable. Ask all those people that I and many other SCat pilots killed that way. Or Cougar A pilots. Or MK II arrow spammers. Or even NCat A boaters.
 * Evading enemy fire. Most of missiles could be evaded. FBombs could be evaded. LT could be evaded. Even hitscan weapons, like lasers, could be evaded by jumping out of enemy's reticule and ruining enemy's aim. Insta hit don't mean insta damage, BTW. Lasers need about a second to fully discharge. Yes, your mech stops after landing, but as a lot of weapons need considerable amount of time to recharge, you have enough time to reaccelerate, especially if you have MASC.
 * Close combat maneuvering. While this type of maneuvers is quite hard to do properly, it is possible to use them for your advantage. It's really a countless times one single jump was the decisive action between life and death. Suddenly appearing where your enemy do not expect you, jumping out of the way of advancing enemy to let your teammate to get a clear shot, getting to enemy's blind spot quickly: all of this is extremely useful and could be done effectively with some training.

 Of course, JJs are not very friendly for a new pilot to use, but with some skills they become a powerful tool for a mechwarrior.

And, BTW, you cannot get a mech kill with MGs, they don't do any damage to heavy armored targets, like mech or tanks.

[MerfMerf]

<Good examples of JJ use>

Quoted for truth.

Used in bursts with vectoring they are great for getting you behind cover when you are stuck in the open and have fire incoming. With the vectoring you can have your mech go backwards and right like an L to get behind cover quickly (provided you have cover to your back and right of course...).

Also good in more close combat scenarios of used correctly. A clan mate got me good yesterday in the MRM Catapult using its JJs. Was at the end of a close fight and we both started having armour issues. My opponent escaped into a narrow passageway and me chasing in a Loki at full speed to get that last shot of at its shot out side torso. Unfortunately for me my clan mate knew how to use its jumpjets and jumpjetted straight backwards above and past me and plastered me to a wall with a full MRM barrage. Was very nicely done.  Not only did the JJs deny me a shot at the damaged sections, but also did it bring me into its sights (which otherwise is difficult with a fast moving Loki) and with the narrow corridor there where no place to escape. Nicely laid out trap that would have been impossible to do without jumpjets.

JJs are also a nice "get out of jail  free card". Easily the fastest way to get unstuck after a piloting error got you stuck on a rock, a fence or anything else small and insignificant to anyone except a battlemech ( ). But this has already been mentioned I think.

/Merf - Can agree the heat is an issue though. Boats alpha anyway. Low heat designs are the ones most affected by hot jump jets.

[Frostiken]

If you had actually read my post you'd not have wasted your time listing basic terrain maneuverability and evading long-ranged weapons in there because those are only two reliably consistent uses of jumpjets.

Jumping into cover is situational, some crazy combat trick even more. Prove me wrong not with 'a story about this one time that was awesome' but if you can do this consistently against good players you should have NO PROBLEM making a youtube video education noobs like me in your elite ways.

[MerfMerf]

If you had actually read my post you'd not have wasted your time listing basic terrain maneuverability and evading long-ranged weapons in there because those are only two reliably consistent uses of jumpjets. Nobody has denied this.

Did I say you had denied this? No I did not.
Did I list any basic terrain manoeuvrability skills? No I did not. I posted my agreement to such things already posted (though the post I agreed with had more then these skills listed).
Perhaps you did not mean me? Then I think quotes would have helped clarify who or what you are referring too.

Jumping into cover is situational, some crazy combat trick even more.

Eh... of course its situational. Did you expect them to provide cover when there are none?
A situational use is still a use. I would be hard pressed to find any move that is not in some way situational. Cutting the circle and going behind is good, unless the other player hit full stop. Staying outside your opponents weapon ranges is good, provided you are not forced into terrain or off map etc. Staying in cover is good against barrages, provided there is cover. Using MASC to escape is good, provided you are not overheating and/or have somewhere to run. You have to get pretty darn basic or general to find something that is not situational.

If you want something to aid you in a circle fight I am thinking MASC is what you want. Not JJs. Are you trying to argue the point that JJs should give you advantages in a circle fight as well? In that case I shall have to disagree and refer to the other points of use JJs have. These other points of use give JJs a well defined role on the battlefields of MWLL. A little separation between MASC uses and JJ uses is good I think.

you should have NO PROBLEM making a youtube video education noobs like me in your elite ways.

My skills are not yet so all encompassing so that I can increase my computer performance by will alone.
Give it time though...

In conclusion: There are plenty of situations where JJs are a great help. They have a place on the battlefield. I have yet to see a convincing argument as to why a lot of time should be put into adding more uses for them then there already are. Tweaks to heat and fixing collision detection issues seem to be all that is needed to get JJs in line perfectly.

/Merf - Another situational use: Get in range of Aeroes to shoot at them with LBX-20

[Frostiken]

If you had actually read my post you'd not have wasted your time listing basic terrain maneuverability and evading long-ranged weapons in there because those are only two reliably consistent uses of jumpjets. Nobody has denied this.

Did I say you had denied this? No I did not.
Did I list any basic terrain manoeuvrability skills? No I did not. I posted my agreement to such things already posted (though the post I agreed with had more then these skills listed).
Perhaps you did not mean me? Then I think quotes would have helped clarify who or what you are referring too.

Yes, sorry about that Not really to you.

Jumping into cover is situational, some crazy combat trick even more.

Eh... of course its situational. Did you expect them to provide cover when there are none?

More situational than any other piece of equipment in the game and you will never get consistent results.

/Merf - Another situational use: Get in range of Aeroes to shoot at them with LBX-20

I prefer jumpjetting in their flight path and letting them hit me

[(TLL)Siilk]

If you had actually read my post you'd not have wasted your time listing basic terrain maneuverability and evading long-ranged weapons in there because those are only two reliably consistent uses of jumpjets.

 Firing weapons is not reliable at all, you need an enemy at your crosshair to make a hit.(Sorry, Sky, pink is unreadable.)

 But seriously, anything you do is only as reliable as your skills, required to do it, are. Nothing is guaranteed to work 100% of the time, some things are harder to do than the others. Yet, deny JJs usability makes absolutely no sense.
 

Jumping into cover is situational, some crazy combat trick even more. Prove me wrong not with 'a story about this one time that was awesome' but if you can do this consistently against good players you should have NO PROBLEM making a youtube video education noobs like me in your elite ways.

 Aren't you a little too full of yourself to think people here on the forum actually deceive you to prove you're wrong? No one is obligated to prove anything to you unless you try to prove your point of view in the exact same manner as demand others to do. Fraps your efforts to use JJs and let people tell you what you do wrond. Or better, play some games against good players, have some FCL duels for example, and see anything you want to see first-hand.
 

More situational than any other piece of equipment in the game and you will never get consistent results.

 I haven't measured how much JJs are "more situational" than any other equipment, but again, their usefulness is out of the question. They are a valuable asset to have if you know how and when to use them.