Author Topic: Autocannon split personality?  (Read 3084 times)

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Offline Nitro_R

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Re: Autocannon split personality?
« Reply #60 on: July 10, 2010, 07:12:27 AM »
I'm just going to add a bit of input here as to our original design philosophy for Autocannons.

We went the "Manufacturer" route with weapon-type design. Since we have more playable units than any other mech game we had to make design concessions to even the playing field. For example, we kept the AC10/20's as higher-caliber rounds that did more penetrating damage. For the lighter AC's like the 2/5's we made it so they actually served a purpose in our game and specialized their particular roles as Anti-Air/Light Armor destroyers.

We found in every other mech game, everyone always went with the highest caliber for tonnage allotted, this usually ended up in boats (MW3 = AC20 Boats for example) and made most TRO mechs quite pointless since nobody would use lower caliber AC's due to the lack of overall damage in the allotted time you expected to live.

Since we added Aero Units we gave the lighter AC's an actual, feasible purpose and a use. An actual role. This way, mechs themselves can serve specific purposes rather than "Pick your favorite and boat it up". We've had many discussions about these balances and how our nostalgic and favorable views from prior mech games affected our opinions and worked within those confines to come up with what we have today.

And a fine job your team has done.
I commend you guys for making a change in gameplay compared to all the other boatwarrior games.

Offline Digital Communist

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Re: Autocannon split personality?
« Reply #61 on: July 12, 2010, 11:58:05 PM »
How is any mechanical thing suppose to fire burst of tank-size projectiles where each one of them stands 3-4 times it's own length apart from each-other?

Ask the creators of Metal Storm. Or Watch this video, and you'll have your answer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLNuBq0NQJE&feature=fvw

Offline Askis

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Re: Autocannon split personality?
« Reply #62 on: July 13, 2010, 01:59:54 AM »
How is any mechanical thing suppose to fire burst of tank-size projectiles where each one of them stands 3-4 times it's own length apart from each-other?

Ask the creators of Metal Storm. Or Watch this video, and you'll have your answer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLNuBq0NQJE&feature=fvw

I wanna see the Mechwarrior who somehow replaces the whole barrel of his AC in-fight ::)

Offline Nitro_R

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Re: Autocannon split personality?
« Reply #63 on: July 13, 2010, 04:32:37 AM »
How is any mechanical thing suppose to fire burst of tank-size projectiles where each one of them stands 3-4 times it's own length apart from each-other?

Ask the creators of Metal Storm. Or Watch this video, and you'll have your answer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLNuBq0NQJE&feature=fvw

Wow. I want my UAC20 fire like that =)

Offline =KoS=Zeus

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Re: Autocannon split personality?
« Reply #64 on: July 13, 2010, 05:09:13 AM »
I wanna see the Mechwarrior who somehow replaces the whole barrel of his AC in-fight ::)

Instead of an ammo feed you have a barrel feed. Imagine a .50 cal machine gun, but instead of a big long belt of ammo, you have 5 barrels lined up on a track. One barrel is loaded at a time and empties its 10 150mm rounds in a second or two, then the empty barrel is cycled out of the firing position and a new one is slotted in and ready to fire in a few seconds.

Judging by how short AC/20s generally are in CBT, I'd guess that they actually are bulky because of how they are stacked inside the mech and around the actual firing port. They could theoretically have multiple barrels with a few shells each loaded into a cylinder array like a revolver, but they are all capable of being fired at once, creating a "wall of high explosive shells". Once emptied, the empty barrels drop back and a "quick loader" slots in 5 more loaded barrels for the next barrage.

This would appear to match the fluff on Sarna.net: An example of the rating system: the Crusher Super Heavy Cannon is a 150mm weapon firing ten shells per "round" while the Chemjet Gun is a 185mm weapon firing much slower (possibly 1 shell), and causing higher damage per shell. Despite their differences, both are classified as Autocannon/20s due to their damage output.

The Crusher may have something like 5 barrels tandem loaded for a total of 10 shells, while the Chemjet Gun might only have 1, 2, or 3 shells loaded up in a single larger barrel assembly.

Either way, plausible and pretty cool.

Offline Digital Communist

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Re: Autocannon split personality?
« Reply #65 on: July 13, 2010, 05:32:05 AM »
How is any mechanical thing suppose to fire burst of tank-size projectiles where each one of them stands 3-4 times it's own length apart from each-other?

Ask the creators of Metal Storm. Or Watch this video, and you'll have your answer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLNuBq0NQJE&feature=fvw

I wanna see the Mechwarrior who somehow replaces the whole barrel of his AC in-fight ::)

Eh, metal storm is still in its infancy. I'm sure that if this weapon system is used 100 years from now the reloading process will be very streamlined.

Offline (TLL) Heretic

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Re: Autocannon split personality?
« Reply #66 on: July 13, 2010, 01:03:31 PM »
How is any mechanical thing suppose to fire burst of tank-size projectiles where each one of them stands 3-4 times it's own length apart from each-other?

Ask the creators of Metal Storm. Or Watch this video, and you'll have your answer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLNuBq0NQJE&feature=fvw

+1 for the video.  That was Awesome; and a good way of getting people to understand the Autocannon principle as the Battletech Autocannon is very similar to Metal Storm, as Zeus elaborates on.

Think of this for AC2 & 5, yes you'd have very fast reload of the cassette, so one salvo every 0.75-1 second, say 10, 30-60mm, HEAP shells per salvo at under 3m between each shell as they leave the barrel.  Would be much more skillful and useful than the weaker DPS fully automatic fire we have now for these weapons (for full auto we have RACs after all).

On a side note, does anyone else feel the RACs are less damaging than they should be?  You would expect a RAC firing in close quarters to do 2-6 times the damage of it's class, therefore a RAC 5 on slow mode hits like an AC10 and never jams, on medium mode it hits like a AC20 while risking jams a little, and on fast mode it hits like an AC30* with almost guaranteed jam if sustained.

Right now with the RACs in MWLL I'm just not feeling that sort of damage from the RACs, maybe the figures stack up, but as I say I'm just not feeling it.

*yes, I know I've made this class up, but that's how awesome RACs can be!


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Offline HAARP

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Re: Autocannon split personality?
« Reply #67 on: July 13, 2010, 01:37:31 PM »
What? AC2/5 are just very heavy machineguns in MWLL, while AC10/20 are cannons with an autoloader. How can that be compared to Metal Storm? ???

Offline 7.[WD]Ragor

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Re: Autocannon split personality?
« Reply #68 on: July 13, 2010, 01:45:32 PM »
What? AC2/5 are just very heavy machineguns in MWLL, while AC10/20 are cannons with an autoloader. How can that be compared to Metal Storm? ???

Yes, some largebore AC have autoloader, some largebore AC have automated fire mechanism (which makes them capable of burst fire (->fires a whole clip which is replaced by an autoloader)).

And they are NOT very heavy machineguns. Machineguns fire projectiles, autocannons grenades.

Since you always need sources-> AC-20 (read it yourself)

For the definiton of machinegun vs autocannon ask wikipedia or google-fu.

But I agree, the Metalstorm is impressive, but has nothign at all to do with BT. (Maybe it would but BT was invented in the 80s -> no metalstorm there.)
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 01:54:26 PM by 7.[WD]Ragor »

Offline HAARP

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Re: Autocannon split personality?
« Reply #69 on: July 13, 2010, 02:13:42 PM »
Oh Ragor. the one time I'm talking about MWLL's implementation, you cite BTU sources ;D
And that's exactly what I said about higher ACs. Autoloader. And as far as the loading mechanism is concerned, lower ACs are nothing more than superheavy machine guns 8)

Offline 7.[WD]Ragor

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Re: Autocannon split personality?
« Reply #70 on: July 13, 2010, 05:23:45 PM »
Oh Haarp...  ;D

Oh Ragor. the one time I'm talking about MWLL's implementation, you cite BTU sources ;D
And that's exactly what I said about higher ACs. Autoloader. And as far as the loading mechanism is concerned, lower ACs are nothing more than superheavy machine guns 8)

Quote from: sarna
An example of the rating system: the Crusher Super Heavy Cannon is a 150mm weapon firing ten shells per "round" while the Chemjet Gun is a 185mm weapon firing much slower (possibly 1 shell), and causing higher damage per shell. Despite their differences, both are classified as Autocannon/20s due to their damage output.

-> The Crusher is an autocannon.
-> Chemjet Gun is a cannon with an autoloader. Totally different mechanic behind.

In MWLL the LBX and LT have autoloader, AC fire to fast for being 'autoloaded'.

And again no, 'lower' ACs are absolutely no 'superheavy' machineguns/wikipedia. (because they don't fire projectiles)

Offline Profane Arbiter

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Re: Autocannon split personality?
« Reply #71 on: July 13, 2010, 05:42:22 PM »
How is any mechanical thing suppose to fire burst of tank-size projectiles where each one of them stands 3-4 times it's own length apart from each-other?

Ask the creators of Metal Storm. Or Watch this video, and you'll have your answer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLNuBq0NQJE&feature=fvw

wow, so some quick math on the explosive rounds...that's 4166 grenades (rounded down) per second.

lol
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Offline HAARP

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Re: Autocannon split personality?
« Reply #72 on: July 13, 2010, 06:48:08 PM »
And again no, 'lower' ACs are absolutely no 'superheavy' machineguns/wikipedia. (because they don't fire projectiles)

And as far as the loading mechanism is concerned
::)

Offline 7.[WD]Ragor

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Re: Autocannon split personality?
« Reply #73 on: July 13, 2010, 07:28:32 PM »
... is it an autocannon (fed by belt or clip/weapon 'pulls' the the next shot) and not an autoloader (single reload of shots/shot is 'pushed' into the weapon).

;D ;D ;D

Anyway, I agree, you are right.