How many of your variants would use PPCs? (0.3.1)

[MerfMerf]

With a laser you can...
Also, like I pointed out above it depends on how you define accuracy.

Definitions of perfection aside, it is perfectly possible to achieve an accuracy with so little deviation that for the guns intended range there will be no deviations given a perfectly steady hand and no wind. If you are talking about actual perfection then no, nothing we can produce can measure up to the the perfect mathematical model (Like Platon's theory of forms). But this perfection is not important (only perfection to the point of hitting your target on the subsection you are aiming for at a weapons intended range is). No one would be happier then me if we could have actual real world circumstances like wind affect our projectiles (although this would make lasers even better...), but a game is a simplification of reality. A random bullet spread (as seen in most FPS that simulate modern day combat) is in my opinion a higher level of simplification then is for instance a moving cross-hair.

With further randomization on bullet spread (we already have some on the RACs and that is fine) the simulation of aiming skill will be reduced. I can not see it any other way. It will reduce how much skill affects the game.

Like I mentioned; Some weapons in MWLL already are not 100% accurate. ACs, RAC for instance. The ACs are nice in that they take skill to be used to great effect. There is nothing random about their inaccuracy. The RACs are randomized. This to make them fill a specific role, making sure they are not use for sniping (it is not their purpouse). I would have prefer it if these instead shook the cockpit around when you fired them, if it where not for the fact that would also make using any other weapon at the same time near impossible (at least lasers) which would require some rather extensive rebalancing to make them viable. In conclusion, this is about the amount of randomization I want. Not more. Definitely not remove the skill from aiming with "sniper weapons" by introducing a random spread. Please oh please make it more difficult by other means instead.

/Merf - Offers apologies for the thread hijack.

[=CJW=YalK]

All I'm saying, and I'm glad that there are supporters, is that anything less than 99% accuracy in a video game is unacceptable.

the is no 100% in real life. You can NEVER be 100% accurate. Weapon spread is not only a game design feature.  I agree that that weapon spread can be done in a bad way. To much spread can kill the game or make it looks like Gears of Wars .
But good realization will only improve a game experience

While I agree that there are too many factors to ever be 100% accurate in a real life situation, if I'm playing a video game, and my weapons don't hit where I'm aiming because of some randomizer, I'm not going to play it anymore.  Especially in a game with engagement ranges of upwards of 1 km, the ability to actually hit a moving target that far away is damn hard in its own right.  It doesn't need to be made harder.

There is no normal weapons in Battle Tech Universe. Just accept it.
There were no stabilizers on tanks in WW2

Actually, the M4 Sherman, M2 Stuart, and M26 Pershing all had a rudimentary (by today's standards) gyro stabilizer for the main gun and its sight.  It only worked in the vertical axis, as it could not turn the turret, and the gun is at a fixed angle relative to the turret.  It wasn't the best system, but it was one of the first of its kind.  We've already come a long way in just over 60 years...

This ^^^ most players will quit if they can't do what they intend doing...

Now, real life inaccuracies are fun and all, but most if not all can be compensated for in some fashion...It may take work but anything other than pure weapon flaws can be corrected.

Anything that is random and can not be overcome no matter what is, imo, not a good thing. Now, I'm all for making it hard/near nay! impossible, as long as I can work at it and overcome those things then I'm all for it. but Pure coded random is just lazy...reticle sway, weapon acquire time with reticle, damage to weapon, all good as long as there is a way to have skill and get better...

Not that I want to contribute to another "random is evil" discussion, but are you saying that a weapon can be 100% accurate as long as you have an infinite steady hand? Because that's certainly not true. A small spread is inherent, and even the sight is most likely quite inaccurate.
Translate this to a machine and the calibration becomes even harder. On top of that it's running, jumping, shaken around by weapons fire, having a whole arm almost blown off, etc.
It's not that simple. All I'm saying.

yes, that is exactly what I'm saying...if by steady hand you mean, sandbags/bi-pod etc....then yes, a weapon is only as accurate as the operator but eliminate the operator and most weapons/lasers whatever should be at least 99.99% accurate... i.e. the only way to sight in a rifle is to secure it and "walk" the shots in line with your sights...so that where your sights are you bullet will go, at that point its all down to the user to do the job...

...and just for topics sake, I like lasers and AC's over PPC's...

and thanks -AAA- for backing me up

Edit: Also, recoil is a good way to introduce inaccuracy...

[=KoS= Eldragon]

Some games that are going for more realism introduce inaccuracy, and people enjoy it that way. Such as the Rainbow 6 series, Armed Assault, etc. In a game where a single handgun bullet can kill (aka realism), making the bullet fly laser straight for miles would ruin the game. In that instance you need to slightly randomize the trajectory to simulate the inherit inaccuracy of both the shooter and the firearm. So in summary, randomization in a game is dependent upon the context of the game's play style.

In the case of MW:LL, randomized weapon trajectories would just annoy people, there is an expectation that laser weapons hit where you are aiming. The problem in MWLL is the sniper weapons are better than the PPC most of the time (PPCs are better against a stationary target). e.g. Most players use the 5 ERLL Novacat, few buy the 4PPC awesome or the 5PPC novacat.

[RenoBlade [GDL]]

hmm, i see.
so the comclusion would be to keep the accuracy, but make the aiming itself harder with recoil and shaking on moving/jump/landing...
makes even more sense if you think about heavy-gauss. that big gun could  throw off the own mech with its recoil

that reminds me of MW3. the way the arm weapons recoil. gauss, ppc and ACs pushed the arms back. and if you didnt fire both arms, you would turn the torso for a second.

but i see other problems. like the srm-vulture, there is the problem of chain-shaking coming to the mind, or is that just a matter of teamplay ?

[xInVicTuSx]

I use ERPPC Awesome all the time, love it, x4 PPC Awesome however, is trash.
Not sure why PPC does less damage than ERPPC, the trade off was supposed to be more range for more heat.
Now the two are hard to compare, PPC just sucks compared.
It make the Uziel prime bleh and the Warhammer Prime laughably bad compared to its other variants.
Same damage, less heat, less range. We really need this for some of the crucial IS mech designs.
Prime needs to be the Uzi's main damage dealer, the other variants are specialty mechs.
I will still probably use Awesome prime over X4PPC, even with the same damage and less heat I still think the Prime will be better in most situations, but that is just my personal preference.
Hope this gets dealt with soon, unneeded nerfs to IS weapons just makes it all the harder to fight all them clannies.

[(TLL) Heretic]

I use ERPPC Awesome all the time, love it, x4 PPC Awesome however, is trash.
Not sure why PPC does less damage than ERPPC, the trade off was supposed to be more range for more heat.
Now the two are hard to compare, PPC just sucks compared.
It make the Uziel prime bleh and the Warhammer Prime laughably bad compared to its other variants.
Same damage, less heat, less range. We really need this for some of the crucial IS mech designs.
Prime needs to be the Uzi's main damage dealer, the other variants are specialty mechs.
I will still probably use Awesome prime over X4PPC, even with the same damage and less heat I still think the Prime will be better in most situations, but that is just my personal preference.
Hope this gets dealt with soon, unneeded nerfs to IS weapons just makes it all the harder to fight all them clannies.

All True, thank you, and Karma for bringing us back on topic.

I have only piloted some of my 0.2 favourites (quad PPC Awesome, PPC 'Hammer) a couple of times since the Armour upgrade, the IS PPC was always weaksauce (and as you say why the damage nerf?) but with the 0.2 armour levels it still had teeth.  In 0.3 the IS PPC is pointless.  They're slightly faster recycle rate is good for shake, but they hit so feebly that shake is all they are good for   IS ERPPC every time over IS PPC.  Remove the difference in recycle rates and damage difference and the IS PPC would be a very useful medium range killer again.

Will be interesting to see what people think of the PPCs now they are faster.

[=KoS= Eldragon]

I have only piloted some of my 0.2 favourites (quad PPC Awesome, PPC 'Hammer) a couple of times since the Armour upgrade, the IS PPC was always weaksauce (and as you say why the damage nerf?) but with the 0.2 armour levels it still had teeth.  In 0.3 the IS PPC is pointless.  They're slightly faster recycle rate is good for shake, but they hit so feebly that shake is all they are good for   IS ERPPC every time over IS PPC.  Remove the difference in recycle rates and damage difference and the IS PPC would be a very useful medium range killer again.

Will be interesting to see what people think of the PPCs now they are faster.

Since so many engagements happen at 900 meters, if I am using something that can't hit targets at 900 meters, it must have some other advantage to make up for it.  IMHO  the faster cycle time of the ISPPC helps make up for the 700 meter range, but the ISPPC needs to do the same damage as the IS ERPPC to balance it out perfectly.

[(TLL)CapperDeluxe]

the 0.3.2 PPCs seem to have gotten a decent projectile speed bonus, helps quite a bit the short time I used em