AC hit detetion error on moving targets

[Threesan]

Maybe, but you can more or less remove the need to lag-lead.

That might create performance troubles for something like LRM salvos (which could simply be handled by the server), or MRM salvos, or perhaps a Mauler's 4x Flamer burst. However, it would seem one temporal frame of reference would be needed per player, and that one frame of reference could be used to handle all current projectiles fired by that player. I don't know how much performance that would take. /theoretical

So in MWLL are both the client and the server capable of determining a heavy AC explosion, with the server being the proper determination, and the client only indicating an explosion at the "lag ghost image" that is not the true server-position of the target? That seems to fit the apparently contradictory ability to miss-but-cause-damage-and-confirmation-sound, and to hit-with-confirmation-sound-but-no-damage (considering the somewhat larger radius of the zero-damage frag component of heavy AC rounds, or larger-radius low-damage EMP component of PPCs)...

[cocoajin]

Why not have the client firing the projectile track hits and then transmit the confirmation to the server.  If you see you hit it, you damage it...because honestly, you can only use what you see in game as a means of deliverin the weaponon target.

Thats the only way to make the shooter's efforts against what they are seeing really count...this ability to take what you see and succesfuly deliver your weapon on target is a central skill set within the game.  Why deminish that by negating it all by determining success/hits outside of that key player interaction by including a middle man, like the server, in the mix?

[HAARP]

Why not have the client firing the projectile track hits and then transmit the confirmation to the server.  If you see you hit it, you damage it...because honestly, you can only use what you see in game as a means of deliverin the weaponon target.

Because this can be exploited by sending false information to the server.

[[MPB]OM_Sannyasi]

i've more so noiced lag on the damage updates rather than the round not hitting- i don't use ac's much so maybe it's special. sometimes i see an enemy critical and then all of a sudden he looks full health randomly, and sometimes i do massive damage and see no damage on my gauges then a few seconds later hes all dark red- i don't think it's the rounds i think it's the target indicator- i may be wrong but i've been keeping an eye on this bug for some time and im fairly certain this is what is going on- at least it's not 1.0 which works about 10 percent of the time :P

[=KoS= Eldragon]

Why not have the client firing the projectile track hits and then transmit the confirmation to the server.  If you see you hit it, you damage it...because honestly, you can only use what you see in game as a means of deliverin the weaponon target.

Because this can be exploited by sending false information to the server.

Of course, Crysis already has all kinds of holes when it comes to sending false information to the server (Which I won't elaborate on, less some script kiddie reads it and decided he wants to cheat) But its moot really, the MW:LL team does not have access to the crysis net code.

[snooggums]

i've more so noiced lag on the damage updates rather than the round not hitting- i don't use ac's much so maybe it's special. sometimes i see an enemy critical and then all of a sudden he looks full health randomly, and sometimes i do massive damage and see no damage on my gauges then a few seconds later hes all dark red- i don't think it's the rounds i think it's the target indicator- i may be wrong but i've been keeping an eye on this bug for some time and im fairly certain this is what is going on- at least it's not 1.0 which works about 10 percent of the time :P

Waiting for the damage display to update is like a game show: "Is that your final answer?"

I believe the damage display after about 5 seconds, and I only use the audio cue for missiles striking out of view.

[Dragonlord]

I have yet to hear a good and belivable explanation as to why hits do not register with the server.
All I hear are excuses about lag and such, and that I have to wait for the damage display to update

When running in a mech or tank with 2x AC10 consistently firing on an enemy heavy mech for 3+ minutes at point blank range (50-150m), I would think that the enemy mech would take some rather serious damage if not be destroyed.
Last time I did that the mech damage display after what was more than 3 minutes had barely turned yellow and that mech was trying to run from me so I was firing at the weak rear armor.
My ping at the time was around 150.
I would very much like to know how you can call that lag, as with that kind of lag you would most likely have lost connection with the server long ago.
My client showed maybe 9 of 10 shots hit, but my impression was that maybe 3 of 10 shots were actually registered as hits.

[SquareSphere }12thVR{]

You're target also has lag as well.  Doesn't matter if your ping is 150 if the guy you're shooting at has a one of 350.

Since i do a lot of playing in passive mode i hardly even target lock someone,  I use my cbill indicator to confirm my hits .

[Dragonlord]

Again the arguments brought up are excused with lag, I dont buy that anymore.
When I have no problems with hit detectoin flying an ASF against another air unit with a ping of 350+ using MG, AC2 and SSRMs that argument no longer adds up.
And the case in question the mech I was firing on can not have had a ping of 350 as I was around the highest with my 150.
Although I dont know what the player in question had in ping, I am failry certain it was not much above 100 as most those on the server had a ping of less than 100.

[=KoS= Eldragon]

Again the arguments brought up are excused with lag, I dont buy that anymore.
When I have no problems with hit detectoin flying an ASF against another air unit with a ping of 350+ using MG, AC2 and SSRMs that argument no longer adds up.
And the case in question the mech I was firing on can not have had a ping of 350 as I was around the highest with my 150.
Although I dont know what the player in question had in ping, I am failry certain it was not much above 100 as most those on the server had a ping of less than 100.

First, a simple example of how lag causes shots to miss:
Imagine if you will an Owens going 180 kph (50m/s), perpendicular to your position. If your lag time is 100 ms, and the owen lag time is 100ms, that means it takes .2 seconds for the position of the owens to get sent to your PC. 50 meters/sec * .2 sec = 10 meters. Thats right,  there can be up to a 10 meter difference between where your PC THINKS the owens is, and where it actually is. Thankfully, games have position prediction code, and mechs cannot stop and turn on a dime, so in practice its never that bad. But this is an example how just a little bit of lag can make a huge difference in where you are aiming versus where the target actually is.

There is also more to lag and hit detection than simply ping time. Modern servers will return a ping request faster than a data request, simply because it takes so much longer to calculate the data.

You can have a ping of 15, but if the server is starting to bog down it will start dropping packets. If those packets contain the data indicating your shot on a target, the server will not record it. Additionally, weapons that fire multiple rounds are deceptive, since it will record you hitting your target with *some* of the bullets, but not all of them. You will think you are hitting, but in reality 1/3 to 1/2 of your shots are not registering with the server.

Next there is the deflection shot to consider. When shooting at a moving target 90 degrees from you, the chances that the position of the target on the server is different than the target on your client is greater. This chance is greater the higher the speed of the target (see above example).

When dog fighting, you do not take a lot of 90 degree deflection shots like you do in a mech. When you add it all up, hitting a fast moving target (e.g. and aerospace fighter) with a slow moving bullet (e.g. an AC5 round in 0.3.1) has a very high chance of not being registered on the server.

This is why aerospace fighters can't fly any faster in the game, the lag shield would make them impossible to hit.

[Dragonlord]

I was following the enemy mech, as in moving in the same direction as the enemy behind them, in a mech carrying a UAC10 and SRM4.
I had no problems with hits when using the SRM4, but the UAC10 did not have the same.

Please explain to me how this can be a lag issue.
Especially considering I was following the enemy mech for 3+ minutes.
I have yet to see a 2-3 minute lag on any server.

[SquareSphere }12thVR{]

There is a known issues when a client becomes unsynced from the server.  right now the only work around is to disconnect and reconnect to the server.

[=KoS= Tripod]

I hate having to lead my L@z0rz

[Cocoa-Jin]

Why not have the client firing the projectile track hits and then transmit the confirmation to the server.  If you see you hit it, you damage it...because honestly, you can only use what you see in game as a means of deliverin the weaponon target.

Because this can be exploited by sending false information to the server.

So there is no way of protecting against malicous intent to send false info to teh server?  Im just curious what type of false info can they send?  Ive seen games do it succesfully with little to no malicous false info to the server.  There is no way of creating a locked portion of the weapon/damage model code for server play?

[Threesan]

Anything that runs on the client side can be altered. Punkbuster's entire business model is based on the continuous struggle to keep game clients clean, and even that does not provide complete protection. A client is someone else's computer system -- they can modify the OS however they want, and modify whatever else, too -- including any "locking" mechanism, integrity checks, etc.

The typical "protection" is to not trust clients for anything important. However, some simple things can be left to the client with the option of being checked by the server, e.g., ammo, weapon reload times (of course, anything not actually validated is a potential exploit). But damage is not one of those things. If the server can't do damage properly in the first place, how would it validate a client's claims?