The Mechlab: Battlemechs vs Omnimechs

[HAARP]

Greetings.

There has been some talk about the mechlab lately and it seems the devs are currently working on a concept. I make this thread for me to discuss my ideas and especially to express my concerns with the tidbits I have gathered so far.
Some may recognize these ideas from my earlier mechlab thread here, but I feel the need to make a new, coherent thread to get my point across better and more related to recent MWLL versions and information.
Feel free to join me, but please try to keep this on topic. Also, if you haven't played MWLL yet or if your only experience with mechlabs comes from MW4, please refrain from posting here. Thank you.

What I gathered so far:
1) Pod system: All mechs receive pods to mount their weapons in.
2) Some pods are restricted for certain weapon types. Atlas can only carry missiles in its chest and Energy/Ballistic weapons in the arms for instance
3) All modding will be based on naked variants. There are no factory designs
4) As a consequence, all mechs will be Omnimechs (within the limitations described in 2)


Let's talk about Omnimechs. Omnimechs are a Clan invention and one of the biggest revolutions in Battlemech technology.
For reference, here is some information about Omnimechs. To make it short, Battlemech modifications are rare, expensive and take time. In turn, Omnimechs can be easily refitted with alternative weaponry and equipment.
Here is how it would translate into the game:

Battlemechs: Come with main variant and some other canon variants. Everything can be modified, but every change costs extra because a tech has to work on it. Swapping the reactor for instance will be very costly. Other big changes include swapping an arm for an LRM20 pod and stuff like that. This should also be very expensive. If you want to make your Warhammer into a missile boat, you better consider buying a missile mech in the first place or going Omni, because it will be extremely expensive.
To summarize: Everything can be swapped, but the more you modify the more the modification itself costs (on top of equipment cost). A fully modded Battlemech should cost about twice as much as the stock variant.

As an example (Prices were selected for illustratory purposes): Take a Warhammer for instance. Since these mods are based on the default variant, we have 2 PPCs, 1 SRM6, 2 med laser, 2 small laser and 2 machine guns.
Remove old engine (+10k), sell engine (-10k), buy new, slower engine to free up tons (+25k), install new engine (+10k).
Remove weapons arm (+5k), sell PPC that was in arm (-5k), buy LRM20 (+8k), install new LRM pods where the arm used to be (+10k).
You just added 35k to the cost of your mech by swapping the engine, the most expensive mod that can be done on a mech. An additional 18k were used to replace a PPC arm with an LRM20 pod.

Omnimechs: Come with a fixed engine, armor, internal structure, myomer (MASC) and some other fixed components like the flamer on the Puma, jumpjets on some Omnis and heatsinks, which can be increased, but not reduced. It basically depends on the base variant.
Everything else can be freely added: weapons, heatsinks, jumpjets and equipment. The only limitations are the pods as mentioned above. Quite similiar to MW4, but (hopefully) not as retarded.
Additionally, maybe we could allow Omnis to change their loadouts and replace lost limbs in the hangar bay.
This is balanced by the fact that Omnimechs are 25% more expensive than equally-equipped Battlemechs to begin with.

An example: The Shadow Cat base variant comes with an 270XL engine that allows it to run 96kph. 6 Jumpjets allow it jump up to 180m, MASC increases the speed to 129kph in short bursts. It comes with an Endo-Steel internal structure that trades bulk for pod space, as do the 7 tons of ferro-fibrous armor. It only has the 10 double heatsinks that come stock with the fusion engine.
All of these things cannot be changed!! (except heatsinks, more can be added). This gives you 17 tons pod space to play with.
You now add a Gauss Rifle with 2 tons ammo (+15k), 2 ER Med Laser (+8k) and a Beagle Probe (+10k). That's it. No additional costs, as changing the loadout of an Omnimech is easy and free. But since Omnimechs are more expensive than Battlemechs in the first place, it still costs about the same as a stock Warhammer.


Now, why do I want these restrictions? It's simple. To prevent idiots from making retarded configs. To prevent boating and min/maxing. To increase diversity on the battlefield. To distinguish Clan and IS. To make the game more canon. And make the game more fun.

We all know what happens as soon as the mechlab comes out. People will want to make specific variants. There's the fast brawlers with a shitton of firepower at a single, short range bracket. Then there's slow snipers, possibly with jumpjets that mount long-range weaponry exclusively. Everything inbetween will be raped.
This is a big deal and the biggest fear many of those opposed to the mechlab have!
So if we restrict what could be done, these variants will become rare. Let me explain:

If your goal is to make a slow Sniper armed to the teeth with gauss rifles, you will face the problem that you can't change the engine on Omnimechs. You have to live with the pod space you have available, and due to some Omnis coming with a lot of stock heatsinks you better off using weapons that produce heat, since otherwise the tonnage allocated to the fixed heatsinks would go to waste Other Omnis may come with less fixed heatsinks, but the other limitations remain.
It's not impossible to make such a sniper. Just base the whole thing off a Battlemech, but this will be accompanied by a huge cost.  You can still build your 3 UAC20 brawler that runs 86kph, but only at a Premium, based on Battlemechs.

-----------------------------

So please, don't make every mech an Omnimech. They're not, it kills diversity and allows for ridiculous variants. Also, the factories don't produce empty Battlemechs. Starting from an empty chassis for every mech unrealistic and halfway converts Battlemechs into Omnimechs already.

Let me finish by saying that I appreciate the mod so far in every aspect and am thankful for every new release and every hour of work the devs invest into making it! Sorry if I sounded a bit harsh yesterday, KingLeer. I simply feel strongly about this subject.

[(TLL)CapperDeluxe]

I think.... the devs will do whats right.  Customization is as much a part of battletech as the mechs are, and MW4 mechlab is actually a pretty decent example to go by.

[Taemien]

If you go by canon. OmniMechs are not as customizable as BattleMechs, yeah you can swap The weapons out. But a full overhaul isn't possible. The armor, engine, internals, are all locked (cannot swap a XL engine for a regular, can't swap regular armor for Ferro Fibrous, ect). However BattleMechs cannot be easily customizable. It takes a while to remod an arm to take another weapon for example.

[~SJ~ Razorin]

My opinion so far. After carefully reading your post. 

The Omnimech as described in Battletech wiki pages, was invented, to allow quick customization of a 'mech.
I dont know how the mechlab will be introduced. But I personally see it as a "Modification a few hours before battle"
So, my suggestion would be to limit such customization to the Omnimechs only.
Why ? Because it would greatly diminish the outchance of having horrendous mech running around with completly stupid design. And make it more "cannon".
My fear come from MW4 multiplayer era... When you gave to anyone the right to modify a mech, as if it was a damned doll with changeable part. ( I do picture the modded creation of Jason in Toys Story 1 at this point)

[HAARP]

If you go by canon. OmniMechs are not as customizable as BattleMechs, yeah you can swap The weapons out. But a full overhaul isn't possible. The armor, engine, internals, are all locked (cannot swap a XL engine for a regular, can't swap regular armor for Ferro Fibrous, ect). However BattleMechs cannot be easily customizable. It takes a while to remod an arm to take another weapon for example.

That's exactly what I'm saying!

and MW4 mechlab is actually a pretty decent example to go by.

It is bad. Very bad. I was going to go into detail, but that would've made too many people go TL;DR

[Brainwright]

Has anyone ever kept to standard and omni rules when creating their own specifications?  Even in Classic Battletech?  Maybe in tournament play that was the rule, but just listening to the people who used to play the tabletop game here, it sounds like their configurations were every bit as horrendous as in the Mechwarrior games.

I find most of these restrictions veer the game toward something less easily accessible.  I don't want Clan mechs to have all the advantages.  If we want a Clan vs. IS that works, some of the barriers are going to have to be taken down.

No, I don't think the mechlab should be greatly restricted.  I just think the horrid arrays we all fear should be fragile compared to a simpler, if harder to use, loadouts.

Also, if we're going to modify engines, no tweaking up or down.   A new reactor is a new reactor, and only a small range should be able to fit in each mech, if any at all.  Getting more speed from there should be a matter of reducing overall tonnage or adding MASC.

[=KoS= Eldragon]

Why worry about a feature that isn't out yet? Lets let the devs come out with a mech lab first.

As to Omnimech versus Battlemech, IMHO its a useful distinction if you are playing faction specific CBT, or doing a CBT game where you track expenses; but in MW:LL its just another avenue for balance problems that only the hardcore fans care about.

Even in the original game (e.g. pre-clans) custom variants, field refits, and other customization existed. The most famous example being Yen-Lo-Wang.

[Rally]

Be a bit more flexible. So, omnimechs allow quick battlefield refits but there are limits in what can be done to them during that quick change. Still, even though it might not be written down anywhere, I'd say it's totally possible for them to be modified more extensively (just like battlemechs) given a more permissive time frame.

[Leeko]

Why worry about a feature that isn't out yet? Lets let the devs come out with a mech lab first.

Because HAARP has an infallible sense of what's awesome and the devs should listen to him.

[(TLL)CapperDeluxe]

and MW4 mechlab is actually a pretty decent example to go by.

It is bad. Very bad. I was going to go into detail, but that would've made too many people go TL;DR

if only because there's no economy model to base the expense customization incurs, then you're right. But I'm talking purely from the standpoint of restricting weapons and equipment based on chassis capabilities so you don't have a free for all for customization like in Mech 2 and 3.

[SquareSphere }12thVR{]

The whole omni concept is built around "weapon pods" to begin with as they relate to weapon selection.  I think you it hit it on the head about "fixed" components and core chassis essentials.

The benefit of omnis really became useful in long campaigns.  Supplies getting thin?  Config for Energy.  Need more artillery? Config those scouts to support variants. Out of XYZ weapon replacement parts?  Slot something else in.

The IS battlemechs did NOT have this option in long campaigns.  As was mentioned, yes a battlemech could be custom configed but it took time and resource generally of which were both in short supply when under siege.

There a few ways this could be implemented in MWLL.

Reduced cost for Omni variant swap.  Example I'm piloting a Cougar A, it's a pretty cheap mech around 47k.  I notice the shifting nature of the battle and that the other side is field faster units making my A (lrm) pretty useless.  Going back to the mech bay if i buy a different Cougar variant  the cost should only be [new weapons] - [sold back old weapons].  The main CHASSIS config should not change ie engine size, default hard wired equipment.  This gives the pilot fast and cheap variation without having to buy a whole new mech.

That would be the benefit of an omni system in MWLL, ie cost benefit for staying within one omni mech type.

[HAARP]

Why worry about a feature that isn't out yet? Lets let the devs come out with a mech lab first.

As to Omnimech versus Battlemech, IMHO its a useful distinction if you are playing faction specific CBT, or doing a CBT game where you track expenses; but in MW:LL its just another avenue for balance problems that only the hardcore fans care about.

Even in the original game (e.g. pre-clans) custom variants, field refits, and other customization existed. The most famous example being Yen-Lo-Wang.

Because I fear that if the currently planned concept comes out in the form of a mechlab, it's too late to change the concept already.

And absolutely, no. This is not about CBT. It's about making a proper mechlab that doesn't reek of MW4. It's about diversity, to prevent retarded configs and min/maxing.

Yes, field refits are possible. They're not impossible with my concept either.

Has anyone ever kept to standard and omni rules when creating their own specifications?  Even in Classic Battletech?  Maybe in tournament play that was the rule, but just listening to the people who used to play the tabletop game here, it sounds like their configurations were every bit as horrendous as in the Mechwarrior games.

I find most of these restrictions veer the game toward something less easily accessible.  I don't want Clan mechs to have all the advantages.  If we want a Clan vs. IS that works, some of the barriers are going to have to be taken down.

No, I don't think the mechlab should be greatly restricted.  I just think the horrid arrays we all fear should be fragile compared to a simpler, if harder to use, loadouts.

Also, if we're going to modify engines, no tweaking up or down.   A new reactor is a new reactor, and only a small range should be able to fit in each mech, if any at all.  Getting more speed from there should be a matter of reducing overall tonnage or adding MASC.

You make it sound so easy, but I thought about it for a long time. The only real balancing point to prevent min/maxed configs is price. Anything else is either too restrictive or simply won't work.

Also don't forget that IS has Omnis aswell. The Owens is one, Thanatos was initially designed to be one aswell, so I wouldn't mind making it one. "Clan has all the advantages" is not going to happen if prices are balanced carefully and some advantage just has to remain, that's just the way it works; asymmetric gameplay.
If you see a Mad Dog, you can be sure that it's rear armor has this and that value and that its maximum speed will be 86kph. When you see a Warhammer, you won't expect a 86kph med laser laser boat now would you? (well, the glowy weapons give it away ) Don't make it sound like Clan has all the good stuff, because that's only partially true.

And yes, I build my configs according to Omni rules. In fact, I build all my machines to at least keep the look of the original. Where's the fun in that otherwise? Might aswell take a random 75-ton mech then if all you need is a 75-ton chassis and change everything else

and MW4 mechlab is actually a pretty decent example to go by.

It is bad. Very bad. I was going to go into detail, but that would've made too many people go TL;DR

if only because there's no economy model to base the expense customization incurs, then you're right. But I'm talking purely from the standpoint of restricting weapons and equipment based on chassis capabilities so you don't have a free for all for customization like in Mech 2 and 3.

Well, there's more to that.
Crit-based mechlabs for instance have this incredible balance between crits and tons. If you consider weapons, it becomes even more interesting. Weight, crits, heat, range, it all interacts with another to make boats inefficient.
The MW4 mechlab on the other hand is completely retarded. Need weapons? *clonk* done! Want to add more heatsinks? Have the tonnage? *clickclick* done! It doesn't place restrictions on internal space, allowing you to mount a shitton of equipment and heatsinks, just as long as you have the tonnage. And see where that has gotten us
I agree that mounting everything everwhere just looks stupid. I mean, ok, triple laser pod in the shoulder is fine, but having it shoot out of a missile pod just looks stupid MWLL already fixes that by using their own pod system, and it looks very promising indeed!

[Threesan]

Heat is another balancing point (at least for hot weapons or high natural heat tolerance) as you've already pointed out in the case of fixed heat sinks. I've wondered if maybe innate heat dissipation shouldn't be higher but with diminishing returns on heatsinks to encourage builds mixing high-heat and low-heat equipment. Fixed heatsinks alone on Omnimechs without diminishing returns doesn't affect energy boating at all. (Though energy boats already exist, so damned if you do/n't.)

Perhaps other diminishing returns or stacking penalties could exist, as well? Stacked recoil accuracy penalties; chain-explosiveness heavy ammo penalties; heat or refire penalties to Gauss stacking; missile tracking reliability to massive swarms (or perhaps the option of flak-based AMS that takes out missile clusters more probabilistically than number over time; perhaps with bonuses against tight clusters). I once suggested increasing price for repeating equipments to simulate scarcity.

* What of LBX? Recoil and perhaps ammo penalties apply, but neither probably matters too much (and a MASC would work with the excess heat absorption and short weapon ranges). Combined with pricing, is that a sufficient balancing by several small cuts?
* Other potential boats? MedLas?? Just pricing?

[dCK-Ad_Hominem]

I like the concept of pods and criticals. However this will and should not make extreme configs impossible. Some mechs can simply be fit with a hell of an arsenal. I am in favour of designing the mechs before the match and then simply being able to select them. Also I think that Omnis deserve their advantages simply because they are more pricy. All in favour of clan? No. The mechs sure offer some advantages considering range and heat dissipation, BUT they are way more expensive and ergo you have to be a better player in order to make efficient use of them. This is also good in terms of background. Clan mechs are more expensive, but clanners are usually also the better warriors. To avoid one side always winning one might readjust the team sizes to make the clans fight outnumbered or something.

As for MW4: I literally spent days in that mechlab and yes it allowed some of the most ridiculus mechs I have ever seen (fought WoF one day with a Black Knight running at 96km/h having JJ, maximum armor and only a lot of SBLs and MGs), but it also was easily to be understood in comparison to the one of MW3. I would not go as far to call it all bad. Sure the aspect of the criticals was missing that allowed you to stuff every weapon where it just fitted, but apart from that it was okay.

Also should some features like JJ and electronics be interchangeable. As for the heat sinks you are right, every (clan) chassis comes with 10 double hs as a standard, still one should be able to remove hs that exceed that number.

[Deathbane]

This idea is totally awesome.

Mechwarrior 4s blatant disregard for criticals led to alot of min maxing, whilst the earlier, too free mechlabs allowed for some seriously silly designs, like the MG mechs of the mechwarrior 2 days.

This idea is pretty much perfect for a mech lab. The IS get more leeway in changing default mechs, and the omnis get cheaper weapon refits but are more restricted in changing the actual chassis.

Good balance, good variation.