Author Topic: The Mechlab: Battlemechs vs Omnimechs  (Read 4034 times)

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Offline HAARP

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Re: The Mechlab: Battlemechs vs Omnimechs
« Reply #75 on: July 22, 2010, 11:54:32 PM »
What really scares me is all the people wanting Clan LRMs to get rid of the minimum range. Basically, they want a weapon system that removes its only true negative. The lack of minimum range was broken in CBT (not to mention the arbitrary half weight of the damn things) which is how you end up with mechs like the Novacat B (in CBT) which had 6 LRM-15s. This mech would already be crippling in MWLL, but to have it be a brawler on par with the Vulture C is insane.
I would agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that many Clan mechs are simply designed without minimum range in mind. The Primes you mention become worse and a lot of people start bitching. Just look at the Mad Dog.

Instead, just fix the fricken LRMs already so they don't do more damage per missile than even SRMs and  have a chance of missing their target even if its stationary.

Offline snooggums

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Re: The Mechlab: Battlemechs vs Omnimechs
« Reply #76 on: July 23, 2010, 12:09:38 AM »
In CBT, assuming Double heat sinks:

6CERLBLs - 12 heat per 10 damage each -
24 tons for the lasers
10 DHS with engine + 26 more to dissipate the heat, 72 heat when alpha striking
So this mech needs 50 TONS of weapons and heat sinks just to use all of the lasers at once, and does 60 damage.
Two UAC 20s do 80 damage in a round for 26 tons for the gun, 10 for plenty of heat sinks and several tons for ammo, around 40 tons.

The CERLBLs are only out of whack due to pinpoint accuracy and in MW4 poor heat implementation. A simple step of making double heat sinks expensive and implementing normal requirements will dissuade CERLBL boats. No fear here.

Offline The Saint

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Re: The Mechlab: Battlemechs vs Omnimechs
« Reply #77 on: July 23, 2010, 12:09:43 AM »
Again, I'll suggest it here. Everyone play the game just taking the Primes and see how it feels. That is Battle Tech. That is what feels right.

I'm pretty skeptical that the stock weapon configs for a board game would directly translate into a PC simulator any better than the myriad of other assets the devs already have to rebalance. Not saying it's impossible, but it seems like it'd happen less than half the time. The combination of widely different weapons that seems natural for a dice system doesn't always feel right when you actually have to aim a cross hair and press a limited number of mouse keys.

There must be some sort of middle ground between the fruit salad approach to weapons loadout of BT board game and pure boating. I don't want to be forced to have all 3 weapons type (energy, ballistic, missile) on most mechs I pilot simply because that's how BT rolled (literally), but that doesn't mean I'll las boat every mech if I'm given mechlab.

As for customization in general, my opinion is that people will tend towards fewer variety of weapons on a mech because that's how it works in real life. You don't want to juggle several widely different systems with different ranges, ballistics, locking, travel time, etc.

Most combat vehicles today have only an average of 2 weapon systems per gunner (who doesn't have to drive the vehicle as well), the major exception being aircraft. Given that mech pilots have to drive and gun, plus manage comm and sensor, it's not surprising that many would move towards less loadout variety (I personally stick to only guns and lasers of similar max range whenever possible), rather than BT's insistance on putting guns, lasers AND missiles with all sorts of ranges on every other mech.
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Offline =KoS=Zeus

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Re: The Mechlab: Battlemechs vs Omnimechs
« Reply #78 on: July 23, 2010, 12:29:49 AM »
The key here is combined arms. If the ERLBLs can be made to be less effective against some assets then you will see them dropping out of favor because of their high heat build up. Right now it is worth the heat spike to be good at killing everything. And nobody in their right mind alpha strikes anymore. The simple act of chain firing 5 CERLBLs over the course of 2 seconds does wonders to curb your heat spikes, especially if you toggle the coolant as you do so.

As for the CBT clan mechs being designed around no minimum range, I highly doubt that. Few of them mount enough heat sinks to fire all of their laser weapons at once, let along enough to swap in some LRMs to the mix. You'll also notice that on the Vulture and Madcat their primes only carried 6 salvos for their LRM launchers, not 12 or 24. They are NOT missile boats. The LRMs were there to exploit weak armor on enemy assets after their range 25 lasers had carved them up. That they could be used at point blank range and weighed half as much as normal appeared to me to be an almost oversight on the part of the designers. I'm actually surprised that more clan machines aren't mounting 20+ tons of LRMs and backing them up with a handful of ERMBLs for staying power in a prolonged engagement. That is literally how freaking over powered clan LRMs are in CBT. 5 tons for and average of 12 damage at 21 hexes and only 6 heat? Yes please.

Mechs like the Bushwacker Prime are not inferior, they simply require a much larger level of skill to play. I'm not talking individual player skill, I'm talking team skill. Bushwackers can fight at any range. The key is to ensure that they are fighting at every range to maximize their damage output. A Narc equipped Raven enables the Bushwackers to keep their head in the brawling game while lending LRM support elsewhere. Their AC/10 and LBL give them decent firepower in a medium range engagement and can be used to finish off foes that continue closing with them, or are attempt to flee. Their machine guns are good against BA and aircraft. They are all around good machines, the problem is that the mindset of MWLL currently is not to be a generalist, but to be a specialist. The problem comes full circle when the ERLBL on the Nova Cat is a generalist weapon that specializes in killing everything. Until that is fixed then yes, mixing and matching weapons is pointless, the ERLBL is clearly the weapon of choice.

Offline ~SJ~KorbinWimmer

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Re: The Mechlab: Battlemechs vs Omnimechs
« Reply #79 on: July 23, 2010, 12:35:06 AM »
The key here is combined arms. If the ERLBLs can be made to be less effective against some assets then you will see them dropping out of favor because of their high heat build up. Right now it is worth the heat spike to be good at killing everything. And nobody in their right mind alpha strikes anymore. The simple act of chain firing 5 CERLBLs over the course of 2 seconds does wonders to curb your heat spikes, especially if you toggle the coolant as you do so.

As for the CBT clan mechs being designed around no minimum range, I highly doubt that. Few of them mount enough heat sinks to fire all of their laser weapons at once, let along enough to swap in some LRMs to the mix. You'll also notice that on the Vulture and Madcat their primes only carried 6 salvos for their LRM launchers, not 12 or 24. They are NOT missile boats. The LRMs were there to exploit weak armor on enemy assets after their range 25 lasers had carved them up. That they could be used at point blank range and weighed half as much as normal appeared to me to be an almost oversight on the part of the designers. I'm actually surprised that more clan machines aren't mounting 20+ tons of LRMs and backing them up with a handful of ERMBLs for staying power in a prolonged engagement. That is literally how freaking over powered clan LRMs are in CBT. 5 tons for and average of 12 damage at 21 hexes and only 6 heat? Yes please.

Mechs like the Bushwacker Prime are not inferior, they simply require a much larger level of skill to play. I'm not talking individual player skill, I'm talking team skill. Bushwackers can fight at any range. The key is to ensure that they are fighting at every range to maximize their damage output. A Narc equipped Raven enables the Bushwackers to keep their head in the brawling game while lending LRM support elsewhere. Their AC/10 and LBL give them decent firepower in a medium range engagement and can be used to finish off foes that continue closing with them, or are attempt to flee. Their machine guns are good against BA and aircraft. They are all around good machines, the problem is that the mindset of MWLL currently is not to be a generalist, but to be a specialist. The problem comes full circle when the ERLBL on the Nova Cat is a generalist weapon that specializes in killing everything. Until that is fixed then yes, mixing and matching weapons is pointless, the ERLBL is clearly the weapon of choice.

Solid post, I concur.

Offline ELH_Sudibor

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Re: The Mechlab: Battlemechs vs Omnimechs
« Reply #80 on: August 13, 2010, 12:02:37 AM »
We all know that only OmniMechs can be customized, not BattleMechs. Introducing mechlab you will just ignore this fact or not? Maybe in mechlab we just should create, paint our own skins for all mechs without customizing them?
NBT-HC ELH

Offline Zakatak

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Re: The Mechlab: Battlemechs vs Omnimechs
« Reply #81 on: August 13, 2010, 12:14:48 AM »
Battlemechs: Hardpoints, no omnimounts. Engine, internal structure and armor can be modified.
Omnimechs: Omnimounts, can fit most weapons. Engine, internal structure and armor cannot be changed.

My opinion. Changing internal structure to Endo Steel will limit the size or amount of weaponry on the torso but makes mech lighter and vice versa. Changing engine type (not power/size, type) to XL will make the mech lighter but damage to side torsos will transfer 50% to the center.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 02:21:23 AM by Zakatak »

Offline ELH_Sudibor

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Re: The Mechlab: Battlemechs vs Omnimechs
« Reply #82 on: August 13, 2010, 12:38:02 AM »
You mean that red/green/yellow hardpoints and grey omnimounts?  ;D
But I agree with internal stuff replacement difference.
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Offline DigitalStef

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Re: The Mechlab: Battlemechs vs Omnimechs
« Reply #83 on: August 13, 2010, 03:05:23 AM »
We all know that only OmniMechs can be customized, not BattleMechs. Introducing mechlab you will just ignore this fact or not? Maybe in mechlab we just should create, paint our own skins for all mechs without customizing them?

Mechs customization is covered in rule books it is just a much more expensive and time consuming when doing it on non-omni mechs(and vehicles.) Kind of like emergency repairs when you loose a maruader's arm so you install the PPC in the torso instead so you can keep the fire power. But this playes hell with the mech physical balance until you can get the gyro sorted out.

Offline ~SJ~ Wolf

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Re: The Mechlab: Battlemechs vs Omnimechs
« Reply #84 on: August 13, 2010, 03:56:23 AM »
A build cooldown time would be perfect for keeping extreme configs out. The more expensive the build, the longer it takes to build. Sitting out of the match is a good deterrent. Plus every time you lose the mech, you would have to do it again. Making the mechlab a time sink and cash sink, is a good solution.

Offline (Wilson)

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Re: The Mechlab: Battlemechs vs Omnimechs
« Reply #85 on: August 13, 2010, 04:12:19 AM »
I'm not sure if anybody has mentioned it yet, but the game MekTek are working on called "Assault Tech 1" has what I think is a really cool mechlab in it. Its built basically to represent the mech as they are in canon btech.. the difference between omni/bmech, weapon types/restrictions etc etc..
 
I'm not sure of their interface, but the mechanics are great.. I would love to see something similar in MWLL(with approp. gameplay balances)
(For the record, I didnt mind the MW4 mechlab either.. just a little simplisitic-ish)
 
I think the trick will be balancing the lab as has been said a few times already, I'll add my 2 cents worth and simply say, I'm glad it isn't me responsible for it lol :))
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Offline Zakatak

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Re: The Mechlab: Battlemechs vs Omnimechs
« Reply #86 on: August 13, 2010, 04:37:55 AM »
I'm not sure if anybody has mentioned it yet, but the game MekTek are working on called "Assault Tech 1" has what I think is a really cool mechlab in it. Its built basically to represent the mech as they are in canon btech.. the difference between omni/bmech, weapon types/restrictions etc etc..
 
I'm not sure of their interface, but the mechanics are great.. I would love to see something similar in MWLL(with approp. gameplay balances)
(For the record, I didnt mind the MW4 mechlab either.. just a little simplisitic-ish)
 
I think the trick will be balancing the lab as has been said a few times already, I'll add my 2 cents worth and simply say, I'm glad it isn't me responsible for it lol :))

It was kinda annoying scrolling thru well over 1000 weapon options though :/ Although I agree, you should follow the AT1:BT style of mechlab, it works great.

Although if there is no fix to alpha strike boat mechs, maybe I would rather have just Prime, A, B, C, D, E variants for all mechs.

Offline Moe479

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Re: The Mechlab: Battlemechs vs Omnimechs
« Reply #87 on: August 14, 2010, 06:17:06 PM »
Quote
It was kinda annoying scrolling thru well over 1000 weapon options though :/

Its getting more friendly if not any experimenmtal/exotic tech is on the list, it just contains realy used and widespread technologies:

IS:

Flamer

Small Laser
Medium Laser
Large Laser

ER Small Laser
ER Medium Laser
ER Large Laser

Small Pulse Laser
Medium Pulse Laser
Large Pulse Laser

PPC
ER PPC

MGun

AC 2
AC 5
AC 10
AC 20

Ultra AC 2
Ultra AC 5
Ultra AC 10
Ultra AC 20

LBX AC 2
LBX AC 5
LBX AC 10
LBX AC 20

Rotary AC 2
Rotary AC 5

Light Haus
gaus
Heavy Gaus

SRM 2
SRM 4
SRM 6

Streak SRM 2
Streak SRM 4
Streak SRM 6

MRM 10
MRM 20
MRM 30
MRM 40

LRM 5
LRM 10
LRM 15
LRM 20

Arrow IV

AMS


Clan:

Flamer

ER Small Laser
ER Medium Laser
ER Large Laser

Small Pulse Laser
Medium Pulse Laser
Large Pulse Laser

Heavy Small Laser
Heavy Medium Laser
Havy Large Laser

ER PPC

MGun

Ultra AC 2
Ultra AC 5
Ultra AC 10
Ultra AC 20

LBX AC 2
LBX AC 5
LBX AC 10
LBX AC 20

Gaus

SRM 2
SRM 4
SRM 6

Streak SRM 2
Streak SRM 4
Streak SRM 6

LRM 5
LRM 10
LRM 15
LRM 20

ATM 3
ATM 6
ATM 9
ATM 12

Arrow IV

AMS
Targeting Computer


Both:

TAG
NARC
Artemis IV FCS


thats less than 100 and 99% of the stock configs don't using anything else.

of cause weapons may have ammo options, but its only worth on the atms cause range and damage changes r very dramatic betwenn E(Extrem Range), M(Medium Range) and H(High Explosive/Short Range) ammo
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