MechWarrior: Living Legends

Public Discussion => Battletech Universe => Topic started by: CGB [CoffiNail] on March 25, 2011, 04:58:59 PM

Title: Clan society
Post by: CGB [CoffiNail] on March 25, 2011, 04:58:59 PM
So, I have recently over the past few months read both Jade Pheonix and Blood of Kerensky as well as chunks of a few sourcebooks.  We get ideas of what it may be like, but it is mostly from a warrior perspective.

So, here is a list of questions. Answer a few or answer them all.  Let us try and flesh out the clans a bit more.

What are your thoughts on Clan society?
How do you think the lower castes live?
Labor Caste vs Merchant vs Technician vs Scientist
The lower castes use grades, how do you think the lifestyle would differ per grade?
What about the differences vs some of the clans would be? ie: Snow Raven's wasting nothing!
What do you think their architecture would look like? Civilian? Military?
What about art, music, theater, etc?
Would they dedicate someone to the task of making music for people to listen to, or would it be wasteful? Would one clan think it is wasteful vs another clan thinking it is not?

I have tossed out some questions, feel free to toss some extra ones and I will add them to the OP

It should be interesting to see the perspectives of people who love/play clanners vs love/play Inner Sphere.


Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: SquareSphere on March 25, 2011, 05:58:25 PM
/slowly steps away from thread to dodge massive incoming clan lore posts
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: (TLL)Siilk on March 25, 2011, 06:15:28 PM
/slowly steps away from thread to dodge massive incoming "Clan vs IS" flame war.

 fixed ::)
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: CGB [CoffiNail] on March 25, 2011, 06:41:56 PM
Aww come on, we can try and be civil. Right? Maybe? Attempt at least?
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: =KoS= Eldragon on March 25, 2011, 07:00:03 PM
Before anyone gets started on this, I ask people should cite their sources. There are an astounding number of people whose knowledge of Clan society is second hand and/or selective. Course, the btech sources may not be perfectly consistent either.

There are a number of clans, and they have their own separate sub-cultures. Its easy to get them confused or take an example and paint the group as a whole.

I got a couple resources in mind, I may post them later.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: (TLL) Heretic on March 25, 2011, 07:40:24 PM
/slowly steps away from thread to dodge massive incoming "Clan vs Reality" flame war.

 fixed ::)

fixed the fix for ya ;)  ;D
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Xarg Talasko on March 25, 2011, 08:38:57 PM
Them's Trial o' Grievance words :p
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: ~SJ~ Amarus on March 25, 2011, 09:53:28 PM
/slowly steps away from thread to dodge massive incoming "Clan vs Reality" flame war.

 fixed ::)

fixed the fix for ya ;)  ;D

You do realize that this means war...though it always meant war...you are just in the wrong >:( :o ::) ;D
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Nebfer on March 25, 2011, 11:28:16 PM
Guide to the Clans and Warriors of Kerensky have probably some of the most useful info.

Quote
How do you think the lower castes live?
In general not to dissimilar to the houses in most aspects. Though it differs between the clans and casts.

Quote
The lower castes use grades, how do you think the lifestyle would differ per grade?
Well their are 25 grades in the civilian casts, Grade 1 is very basic low wage stuff so you will not have much, pore food and a communal living space would not be to far off the mark. Grade 25 gives you better food, more "income", a larger living space (often your own home).

Medical care is very advanced, but also highly rationed to younger people over the older ones (and by your cast and grade).
Transit systems also are cast and grade based, while mass transit systems are available for all, a personnel vehicle is a symbol of higher "rank". Though it's rare for them to have one permanently assigned to them.

Quote
What do you think their architecture would look like? Civilian? Military?
Per WoK Your typical Clan city is rather drab and plain looking, cookie cutter layout, simple architecture. Though impotent government buildings are more impressive, The Hall of the Khans on Strana Mechty is built with a Gothic style. Also these buildings very between the clans, The Falcons and Wolves like Dynamic structures, where as the Jaguars like(ed) simplistic forms

Quote
What about art, music, theater, etc?
For visual arts cast need nought apply, A warrior is just as likely to be a painter as a member of the Merchant cast
Though their are some areas where your more likely to find some types than others. Performing arts are less prevent among warriors and scientists than the other casts -even then it's formed a sort of super cast (mostly from the laborer and merchant lines) to fulfill the needs. Though it's biased to the clans way of life. books are not all that common in the clans.

Quote
Would they dedicate someone to the task of making music for people to listen to, or would it be wasteful? Would one clan think it is wasteful vs another clan thinking it is not?
It would likely very from Clan to clan and from cast to cast.
On visual media (Trivid TV) Clans like the Jaguars have very little media outside essential broadcasts, so have little media industry, on the other hand the Diamond sharks have a huge industry that equals some IS powers in size and ability.
Clan "TV" is driven by needs rather than demand (as is for the most part the rest of their economy) So it provides mostly just information and indoctrination.
It's also cast based, Warriors are more military oriented, Historical battles, weapons tech, grate military leaders, scientists are well more about science and information. The other casts are a bit more like what we would know of, ranging from News (controlled), documentarys, Cooking shows and soap operas, again with a pro clan bias. 
Theirs even Children shows one of the more popular is a series called Clan Spaniel, which features the exploits of of a group of anthropomorphic warriors in their fights to liberate their home worlds from the five tribes of evil monkeys (aka the IS houses), led by their parrot Khan "Polly".
Once again it's all about the clans...

Sports are common clan warriors, and possibly to a lesser extent other casts
Some of the most popular being Lacrosse and Football ("Soccer", American football and Rugby) -Clan Ghost bear is fond of the American football type, and in fact used this to it's advantage on the world of Sheliak when they played a game for control of the world -the Bears won 84 to 3 (it's very popular among Elementals you see).
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Taemien on March 26, 2011, 09:41:59 PM
Them's Orbital Bombardment words :p

Fixt.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: «Çߧ» Trooper_Thorn on March 26, 2011, 10:32:10 PM
Speaking for Clan Blood Spirit, most of the clans have their own separate cultures we have our own. This you will see in our RP that I have posted and will be posting along with our Loremaster Ryu, Khan Gremlich and others when they can join in. I am not going to flame anyone concerning their interpretations so we will stick to CBS and not engage in comparisons. We will leave that up to each represented Clan as they post for themselves. We are the Heart and the Spirit of the Clans we see ourselves as the guide to light the path to go as one the true and only Star league, We encourage of all of our castes artistic endeavors as you will read in our RP. we do have Caste rivalries but we are changing that to encourage competition but not out right warfare. Some stick to the "Old Ways" however we are moving to a more enlightened policy for the betterment of CBS and hopefully of the all the Clans this we will lead by example not force our views on others. So if you wish to know what life is like in «Çߧ» follow our current and future RP.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Kelmola on March 27, 2011, 03:36:20 PM
Again, while some generalizations can be made, the Clans are in many aspects just as varied as the Inner Sphere - which can neither be viewed as a single, monolithic entity. Further, the Clan(s) have evolved over the years - from the founding through the isolation, through Operation REVIVAL and the following migrations/Abjurations and through the Jihad (if you want to include that).
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: ~SJ~ Amarus on March 28, 2011, 03:15:54 PM
and through the Jihad (if you want to include that).

OH GOD...NO PLEASE...ANYTHING BUT THAT >:(.......*pauses to think*...ANYTHING BUT DARK AGE AND THAT!!! >:(
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: [CW]Outlaw on April 05, 2011, 07:21:20 AM
For the lower castes a lot of it depends on the Clan. The Warrior caste of Smoke Jaguar, and Jade Falcons were very hostile towards lower caste/freeborn members of their clans however the Jade Falcons could see their importance to the clan where as the Smoke Jaguars did not. On the opposite side of the spectrum you have Ghost Bear and Diamond Sharks who have a bit more kinship with the lower castes; For the most part however the civilians are treated similarly to the way they are in the rest of the Innersphere with varying degrees. Some clans the inter-caste bonds are stronger, others are weaker.

I dont remember seeing much in print regarding the "Grade" system for the lower castes, was it in the novels or actual sourcebook?
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: CGB [CoffiNail] on April 05, 2011, 07:44:52 AM
For the lower castes a lot of it depends on the Clan. The Warrior caste of Smoke Jaguar, and Jade Falcons were very hostile towards lower caste/freeborn members of their clans however the Jade Falcons could see their importance to the clan where as the Smoke Jaguars did not. On the opposite side of the spectrum you have Ghost Bear and Diamond Sharks who have a bit more kinship with the lower castes; For the most part however the civilians are treated similarly to the way they are in the rest of the Innersphere with varying degrees. Some clans the inter-caste bonds are stronger, others are weaker.

I dont remember seeing much in print regarding the "Grade" system for the lower castes, was it in the novels or actual sourcebook?

Actual sourcebook.  Each caste has 25 grades, i think it is in mechwarrior's guide to the Clans, and there is not a whole lot on it.  The grades basically limit how much credit you get per month, your housing, etc. your grade is affected by how well you work and the quality, your authority.  Something like slander could get you a 2 step reduction in grade.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: [CW]Outlaw on April 05, 2011, 08:42:24 AM
Interesting, first time hearing about it honestly. Either way sounds like something that would vary from clan to clan.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: ~SJ~ Amarus on April 06, 2011, 04:39:17 PM
For the lower castes a lot of it depends on the Clan. The Warrior caste of Smoke Jaguar, and Jade Falcons were very hostile towards lower caste/freeborn members of their clans however the Jade Falcons could see their importance to the clan where as the Smoke Jaguars did not. On the opposite side of the spectrum you have Ghost Bear and Diamond Sharks who have a bit more kinship with the lower castes; For the most part however the civilians are treated similarly to the way they are in the rest of the Innersphere with varying degrees. Some clans the inter-caste bonds are stronger, others are weaker.

All warrior castes have a sense of superiority over the lower castes. I imagine that a short life, few pleasures, high stress, fighting so others do not have to, and adhering to a strict honor code does afford you some privileges. It is a fact that most civilian castes look upon true-born "superiority" almost as someone would ignore a dog, it is true there are some warriors who took it to an extreme but as a whole all warrior castes treat lower castes with indifference. Civilians have great respect for the warriors, and especially in Clan
Smoke Jaguar's case are shocked and distraught when the warriors are defeated. Though the Clan Smoke Jaguar, among others, did not allow freeborns into their touman that does not mean that they were any different in their treatment of lower castes. What you see as overall oppression, perhaps in the cleanliness and order of Lootera, was actually just a different culture than other clans. The Smoke Jaguar's are all about order and hierarchy, what can you do for the clan.  Things that would be praised in other clans are expected as normal behavior in Clan Smoke Jaguar, it has a very high expectation of excellence.


As for the Falcon's it is similar to the Jaguar's except culture differed, individual excellence was praised and freeborns has a much less warrior-like lifestyle. If you have not read Falcon Rising, you should. The techs had their own bars and corner of town that the warriors left them alone to do as they liked, that does not sound like oppression to me. In fact in all clan cities their is a quarter where all are welcome, yes even the warrior quarter, but all must obey the rules of that caste as you are in it. The warrior quarter obviously had more monuments and a higher demand for respect and disciple.

The idea you have that the clans oppressed their people could not be further from the truth. It is a simple numbers game... because .01% of a population cannot (even with the amount of weapons the warriors had) control the billions in the other 99.99%. Even more, if the warriors piss off the techs and scientists, well the techs have been known to get back at warriors by 'messing up' on upgrades and repairs, and the warriors REALLY do not want to piss off the scientists because they research all of their new toys and how the next generation of warriors will act.  Yes each caste has it's own type of power, and they are all interdependent, yes the warriors are the pinnacle, but they give up a lot to be there...the reason why we all think they have it so easy is because of our overly romanticized view of war.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: =CJW= Zone Warden (W) on April 06, 2011, 06:14:34 PM
I've not read too much into the Clan societies but I always had my own (read: MY OWN) interpretation which is possibly far from what the Clans actually are. It's always been about the culture for me as opposed to how the Clans hierarchy is laid out and such. I have a vivid imagination so I like to envision all that I read and create how a character looks exactly for me the first time I read of them, it helps things to play out as a film reel in my head rather than just a block of fictional text. This is my interpretative vision, not from the established canon.

From the days of playing MW2 I've always envisioned the Clans to be very tribal in nature, very reminiscent of their namesakes. Clan Wolf warriors have always been rooted thoroughly in my mind as brooding burly warriors with flame red or braided blonde hair, piercing blue eyes and favouring knotted tattoos and copious amounts of alcohol. I had the idea that both Wolf and Ghost Bear, the latter being very much more Norse in nature, are modelled after our own Celtic societies from history. I see them regaling younger warriors with great sagas about their Khans and Star Captains around a cloistered fire, built in the centre of their ring of powered down 'Mechs on some world they were conquering, all sharing a cask of ale. I see their culture based in the prowess of their warriors, much in the way of the old world but the warriors wouldn't be warriors without the lower castes. It is the common people who pave the way to war after all and I see the Wolves venerating this, so that the Warriors are more mingled with their common brethren as opposed to being aloof.

I see Clan Jade Falcon to be very oriental in nature, almost entirely opposite of the rustic, raw power of the Wolves or the Ghost Bears. I see them as very defined people, slim and physically fit, built for stamina, not brawn unlike the Wolves. I see a healthy mix of the Samurai ethos mixing through their society, how the Warriors are the be all and end all, their word is law for they are the dominant caste of the society. The others are well provided for by their warriors and in this the warriors are afforded their arrogance and high station. I see them as very serious people, preferable to symmetry and the philosophies of war rather than the loud and brawl prone Wolves. I see great temples on their worlds, with fluted roofs and statues of sweeping Falcons made from jade stone. I see their culture as a very isolated and believing utterly that their way is law, above all.

I see Clan Smoke Jaguar as being people of dusky skin, dark hairs and serious temperament. Based a lot on the old Aztec and Mayan civilisations of our history. I see them as being honour bound to the point that it dictates every action in their lives, even more so than Jade Falcon. That a Warriors words never come lightly for they will be carried out to the literal letter. I see the Warriors as quiet, hard people, their achievements festooned upon their body and their 'Mechs in the forms of jewellery and tribal markings, almost like the Inca Hieroglyphs. Telling an entire story just with one image. I see the warriors not as aloof like the Jade Falcon, or the humanitarians of the Wolves. I see the Smoke Jaguar warriors to be almost godlike, completely separate from their nation but in no way out of harmony with their civilisation. I see them almost like the Sumo of Japan, they are regarded with such super human idol-ism and admiration simply for their way of life but they aren't held above the common man in any superior form. They are to be respected, possibly even admired but never feared for they are just as much a part of your world as you are of theirs. I see the Smoke Jaguar warriors bringing new worlds for the people, for the Clan, not for their Khan or the view of the Star League.

I have skewered images of the other Clans as well, which will shape the more I read into the various source books and combat doctrines and what not.

It's why I see Clan Jade Wolf as the bastard culture crash of Falcon and Wolf. I see the warriors striving to greater feats to out shine their fellow warriors from the old Clans. I see them as young, rash, enthusiastic fighters holding aloft the banners of their failed fathers. Fighting the cause so many have forgotten. Almost like a head strong group of young knights pushing past the seasoned veterans for their bitter taste of the glory.

I've been very tempted to start writing my own fan fiction on the journey of Clan Jade Wolf and its exploits, based on the league drop 'Battle for the Inner Sphere' and the more recent friendly drop with the Vegan Rangers. This is the kind of examples I'll be using to describe the warriors of Clan Jade Wolf and their interactions with the other Clans and the Inner Sphere houses and units.

As I said though, this is my view on the culture of the Clans, not exactly their doctrine or how they actually work. :)
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: [IPA] Thalamus on April 06, 2011, 08:12:44 PM
Are civilian clanners allowed to freely choose their careers and "pursue their happiness" (maybe bridging castes, e.g. laborer inventing something and then distributing it, effectively turned into merchant/tech), may they go on vacation, leave their homeplanet etc.?
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Kelmola on April 06, 2011, 09:20:10 PM
I've not read too much into the Clan societies but I always had my own (read: MY OWN) interpretation which is possibly far from what the Clans actually are.

I have skewered images of the other Clans as well, which will shape the more I read into the various source books and combat doctrines and what not.
Would be interested in reading those other as well, your insights were really interesting. :) Here are some of mine, guaranteed to be stereotypical and skewed ;)

Re Ghost Bear, I am sooooo biased but as a Finn their entire cult of bear sounds more than slightly familiar (especially considering their already strong Nordic vibes)... in that the bear was the totem animal of Finns of old (and still is for some Siberian Finno-Ugric tribes). The hunting of a bear (compare to the "Clawing" of CGB) was a holy ritual and the passing of such a great beast was celebrated afterwards with a feast to honour the bear. You were not supposed to even say aloud the name of bear, which is why there are still several Finnish words all meaning "bear": karhu (the formal version in modern times), otso, nalle, kontio, mesikämmen ("nectar palm"), the archaic metsän omena ("apple of the forest" - the shamanistic mushrooms must have been some good stuff) or metsän kuningas ("king of the forest") not being used but still remembered, and the original word totally forgotten (because you were not supposed to say it, duh).

Re Wolves, once you mentioned drinking I can't get rid of the stereotypical image of Russians, especially since half their notable individuals seem to have been of the Kerensky bloodline. Also, when the Clan fluff was originally written, the Soviet Union had not collapsed (and stayed alive in the "future history"), so in my biased view, this heritage would explain the perceived "solidarity" within the clan.

---

As for my tabletop Clan, the Diamond Sharks, I tend to view them as the British Empire of old among the Clans. They are decidedly non-tribal in their affairs, closer to being a nation. I would imagine them trying to maintain a "civilized" face at all times. While the "nobles" might view themselves above the "commoners", neither would seriously want to insult the other, apart from some friendly snickering, jokes and the like. The idea of letting non-warrior castes vote on critical matters (such as the changing of the name from Sea Fox) would also support this image, as England and later Britain was essentially a constitutional monarchy in a time of absolute monarchies, and the kings often sough popular support for their endeavours. They would rather trade than fight, because fighting is rather rude, but when they do fight, the warriors enjoy it much in the same spirit as a labourer would enjoy a good scuffle in a pub. Their strength is in their navy, merchant marine, and explorers (these are not always distinguishable). As a result, the citizens can use their work credit on a myriad of exotic items from faraway worlds. The architecture would be decidedly Gothic with all sorts of unnecessary ornaments, and the clothing and everyday items decidedly elegant. The Clan's riches are used to support science and engineering, allowing the CDS to maintain a technological edge as well as commercial, and the warrior caste would definitely be proud of their scientists because of this. The Chatterweb's historical equivalent (where we are discussing now) was invented by a Briton, and this ties well into the image of the CDS also eagerly building roads, maglev lines, space stations and the like - trade and information must be able to travel in order to flourish. While the other Clans would want to invade the Inner Sphere for ideological reasons, CDS saw it in a more pragmatical way; in the spirit of good old-fashioned colonialism, they would sell Clan-manufactured products to the IS worlds, while getting raw materials from there.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: SquareSphere on April 06, 2011, 11:41:01 PM
all this lore talk make pretty freaking sad we never got to have the home clans fleshed out :/  There was so much potential story that we never got to explore.

Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: [CW]Outlaw on April 07, 2011, 01:27:08 AM
Not all are opressive, however the Smoke Jaguars have been known to kill off civilian populations, such as the case with Turtle Bay, not to mention their own citizens during a famine on Londerholm in 2912, and in Exodus Road the mention of their military leveling a city for a few people supporting a resistance movement. Bear in mind that not only did they kill those that actually did support the resistance movement, they killed the innocents including children, which is the main event that culminated in Trent defecting.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: SquareSphere on April 07, 2011, 09:41:49 PM
Trent is not a saint.  Turtle Bay is a much more complex than just "rawr angry clanners hate city". 
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Kelmola on April 07, 2011, 09:59:17 PM
Not to mention that in order to justify Trent's defection, Paul Moon was written to be the single most one-dimensional operatic villain in BTU since, well, Katherine Steiner-Davion... ::)

I won't even start about the logic of bribing a Clanner (knowing their "mating habits") with the promise of "getting some" after a couple of years' wait - in exchange for providing the coordinates of an invasion route into his people's unguarded rear areas, but hey, that's Twilight of the Clans for you.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: ~SJ~ Amarus on April 08, 2011, 05:33:35 PM
Are civilian clanners allowed to freely choose their careers and "pursue their happiness" (maybe bridging castes, e.g. laborer inventing something and then distributing it, effectively turned into merchant/tech), may they go on vacation, leave their homeplanet etc.?

Yes they can, it is based upon aptitude. If you are a brain you can be a scientist or tech, if you are artistic (yes each clan has artists) it is considered laborer but it is supported. You can do what you will, even apply for freeborn warrior but for everything you must prove that you can do the job well.

Not to mention that in order to justify Trent's defection, Paul Moon was written to be the single most one-dimensional operatic villain in BTU since, well, Katherine Steiner-Davion... ::)

I won't even start about the logic of bribing a Clanner (knowing their "mating habits") with the promise of "getting some" after a couple of years' wait - in exchange for providing the coordinates of an invasion route into his people's unguarded rear areas, but hey, that's Twilight of the Clans for you.

glad to see some people could see how 'un-shades of grey' this series was, it pretty much had to take everything you love out of battletech except for the mechs to make it work. Since when was the ever one super evil faction, or one super good faction. They make trent out to be this tortured soul, and Paul Moon to be satan, and victor to be God himself, Arianna Winson was Joan of Arc, and Russou Howell was a drunken lunatic, IlKhan Lincoln Osis (not my favorite Jaguar) had his head up his ass the whole time, and the poor units of the inner sphere just trying to wipe out a civilization were made to look like an oppressed people when they were getting their collective asses ahanded to them...most pitiful writing in the entire BT universe.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: CGB [CoffiNail] on April 08, 2011, 06:35:39 PM
Are civilian clanners allowed to freely choose their careers and "pursue their happiness" (maybe bridging castes, e.g. laborer inventing something and then distributing it, effectively turned into merchant/tech), may they go on vacation, leave their homeplanet etc.?

Yes they can, it is based upon aptitude. If you are a brain you can be a scientist or tech, if you are artistic (yes each clan has artists) it is considered laborer but it is supported. You can do what you will, even apply for freeborn warrior but for everything you must prove that you can do the job well.

Not to mention that in order to justify Trent's defection, Paul Moon was written to be the single most one-dimensional operatic villain in BTU since, well, Katherine Steiner-Davion... ::)

I won't even start about the logic of bribing a Clanner (knowing their "mating habits") with the promise of "getting some" after a couple of years' wait - in exchange for providing the coordinates of an invasion route into his people's unguarded rear areas, but hey, that's Twilight of the Clans for you.

glad to see some people could see how 'un-shades of grey' this series was, it pretty much had to take everything you love out of battletech except for the mechs to make it work. Since when was the ever one super evil faction, or one super good faction. They make trent out to be this tortured soul, and Paul Moon to be satan, and victor to be God himself, Arianna Winson was Joan of Arc, and Russou Howell was a drunken lunatic, IlKhan Lincoln Osis (not my favorite Jaguar) had his head up his ass the whole time, and the poor units of the inner sphere just trying to wipe out a civilization were made to look like an oppressed people when they were getting their collective asses ahanded to them...most pitiful writing in the entire BT universe.


And this was my first novel in the BTU ;D
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: shyrkonflex on April 08, 2011, 08:47:04 PM
Really interesting stuff, Kelmola pretty much hit the nail in the head for the looks and feels of the different clans how I imagined them.
Wolves/Bears are all "fapp it, lets drink, shit on the rules and just overrunn anything with a loud battlecry" (closest to "normal :D") while Falcons are calculated and methodic etc. with the Jags being the epitome of warrior-style thinking.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Kalon on April 08, 2011, 09:14:34 PM
@ ~SJ~ Amarus  How dio you explain the Smoke Jaguars treament of Horse & his Trinary in Freebirth? Yes they were freeborn but they were warriors of Jade Falcon.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: shyrkonflex on April 08, 2011, 09:18:09 PM
Was it all that bad ?
I thought they were imprisonated and then forced to do labourer tasks, pretty close to being bondsmen.
I don't know if that violates clan rules, but it was obvious that these bitter second-line forces wouldn't party with JF's dropping in their defense zone.
(Leaving out the fact that they shot them down in a ... dishonorable way to say the least).
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Xarg Talasko on April 08, 2011, 09:41:35 PM
@ ~SJ~ Amarus  How dio you explain the Smoke Jaguars treament of Horse & his Trinary in Freebirth? Yes they were freeborn but they were warriors of Jade Falcon.

Woah there fella, you mean Russou Howell's treatment of the Falcons. You'll recall from the novel, that while the other Jags were pretty unhappy about the idea of Horse becoming a Jaguar Warrior, they were also unhappy with all the bizarre bullshit hoops Howell was creating for everyone to jump through, probably because he was drunk as shit the entire time.

Let's also temper that with some knowledge about Russou Howell. He's cruisin along with Trent, watching Paul Moon shit all over his friend at every opportunity for no legit reason, then he believes his friend was killed by invading IS troops (the extraction of Trent to ComStar), suddenly Moon jams him into a rigged Trial of Bloodright, he pretty much admits he thinks it was fixed and he doesn't deserve the bloodname, not only that, but right after winning the name, Moon sends him packing back to Huntress to spend the rest of his days wasting away leading a solahma garrison.

Feeling like something is horribly wrong and you got thrown away + drunk every day = Horse being treated like cowdung.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Kalon on April 09, 2011, 09:30:22 PM
Really interesting stuff, Kelmola pretty much hit the nail in the head for the looks and feels of the different clans how I imagined them.
Wolves/Bears are all "fapp it, lets drink, shit on the rules and just overrunn anything with a loud battlecry" (closest to "normal :D") while Falcons are calculated and methodic etc. with the Jags being the epitome of warrior-style thinking.

The Wolves are actually quite methodical e.g. their preparation for Tukkayid, the Bears are determined & resolute, us Falcons are a combination of Wolves & Bears while the Jaguars are just "LEROY JENKINS!!!!!!!!!!"
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: shyrkonflex on April 10, 2011, 09:45:27 PM
I always thought Wolves where known neglecting all rules and strategy and balancing that by being ... badass.
Tukayyid actually shows just that, they are (where) really thinking out of the box when they where wardens, but where still very potent in battle.
The abscence of methodic or use of the "planned" way was actually what enabled them to stay very flexible and powerfull.

Im not an expert though, might be that I mistaken (This is also Stackpoles rendition of the wolves as far as I remember, he always exenturated the differences between the individual clans a lot).
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: ~SJ~ Amarus on April 11, 2011, 02:21:00 PM
@ ~SJ~ Amarus  How dio you explain the Smoke Jaguars treament of Horse & his Trinary in Freebirth? Yes they were freeborn but they were warriors of Jade Falcon.

I explain that with the fact that the warrior in command, and responsible for his treatment, Rossou Howell was an absolute fapp up. Realize, that if he went on and about like that in Jaguar culture that bastard would have had his block knocked bloody well off! No Jaguar would put up with his antics, even if he was shiting on some freeborn Falcons! It was an aberation of Clan society and tradition, that book pretty much said, "Ok, I know clans act like this(insert traditonal clan society here), and they are pretty honorable, esspecially to their own kind but we are about to wipe out an entire faction, and we have never done that before because everyone is equally evil and good, so to make this stick we need the Jaguar's look like the most evil God-awful nasty characters in the history of the game."

Yeah I pretty much think that is how it went. And from what I have heard from ex-FASA staff, that is pretty much the thought process of those writers that were offing the Jaguar's.

Bloody reprehensible the way my Jaguar's were manhandled.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: ~SJ~ Amarus on April 11, 2011, 02:28:46 PM
Really interesting stuff, Kelmola pretty much hit the nail in the head for the looks and feels of the different clans how I imagined them.
Wolves/Bears are all "fapp it, lets drink, shit on the rules and just overrunn anything with a loud battlecry" (closest to "normal :D") while Falcons are calculated and methodic etc. with the Jags being the epitome of warrior-style thinking.

The Wolves are actually quite methodical e.g. their preparation for Tukkayid, the Bears are determined & resolute, us Falcons are a combination of Wolves & Bears while the Jaguars are just "LEROY JENKINS!!!!!!!!!!"

Neg, the Jaguar's are very well thought out, traditional and warrior minded. If you actually look at how the Jaguar's bid and fought at Tukayyid then you will realize that it makes perfect sense for who they were as a Clan.

In the Clan honor system, to bid the lowest and win is the most honor, also whoever bids the lowest lands first and has the honor of first blood. Therefore Jaguar's, steeped in tradition, bid the lowest (Jaguar's are known as ruthless bidders) because they wanted the honor of first to land. The Jaguar's outfitted their forces in traditional clan style (which did not afford for a long protracted campaign, like the Comguards had planned) and fought in traditional clan manner (they adhered to Zellbringen even when other clans called a grand melee when Zellbringen was broken by Comguard units.)  The Clans went into this battle with no knowledge of Comguard forces, when the Comguards had every shred of knowledge that anyone could have on the clans, after all they had been watching them for three years straight.

Point is, Jaguar's are not anything close to "LEROY JENKINS!!!!!", they are traditional clan warriors, plan as such, fight as such, and when they have been commited to battle are the most ruthless and savage of all of the clans. But until they are commited, they do have their wits about them, in fact they are quite cunning.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: shyrkonflex on April 11, 2011, 03:03:09 PM
Thats exactly what I remembered of the Jags, they kinda have this berserker-styler attitude in which they fight only for the sake of fighting aka never neglect any rules of combat or do any stuff thats considered even close to unhonorable and completely ignoring the expected outcome of the fight.
A bravely fought loss means more than an unhonorable victory for them.
They think that if they loose a fight without breaking the rules they where not strong enough and surviving Jags are usually looked upon by their fellow warriors for not dying in battle (look at that Trent guy).

You could say they are taking the warrior lifestyle the most serious of all the clans (which makes them "bad" people seen from IS perspective).
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: ~SJ~ Amarus on April 11, 2011, 03:19:34 PM
Thats exactly what I remembered of the Jags, they kinda have this berserker-styler attitude in which they fight only for the sake of fighting aka never neglect any rules of combat or do any stuff thats considered even close to unhonorable and completely ignoring the expected outcome of the fight.
A bravely fought loss means more than an unhonorable victory for them.
They think that if they loose a fight without breaking the rules they where not strong enough and surviving Jags are usually looked upon by their fellow warriors for not dying in battle (look at that Trent guy).

You could say they are taking the warrior lifestyle the most serious of all the clans (which makes them "bad" people seen from IS perspective).

True to some extent.

You are correct in your analysis of my statement of how the Jaguar's fight. That much is ture, they are the most strict adherents to honorable warfare as set down by the Founder. An honorable loss is not better than a dishonorable victory, because the latter would never happen. To a Jaguar honorable combat is the only type of combat, therefore a loss is a loss and a win is a win, there is no distinction between honorable and not, unless it is them evaluating how the enemy fought.

Now on the issue of how warriors that survived Tukayyid were treated, that is purely subjective. If you are refering to Paul Moon and Trent, I will once again state that Exodus Road through Prince of Havoc, are all written will one point of view (the Inner Sphere), I say this because the Jaguar POV was only put there to show how depraved and evil they were. The whole series is BS and throws and "example" of Jaguar society
into serious doubt. Paul Moon was drawn up to be the most irredeemably evil character in Exodus Road, he
was Trent's torrmentor the entire book, so that it ended up with a traitor looking like a good guy. If you
believe that because of one character an entire clan deserved to die then you do not grasp the background
and mentality of battletech. Either way the point is if you were under Paul Moon, then yes you were treat like
shit if you were a Tukayyid survivor, if you were under units in Beta Galaxy then you were respected as
vetrans and warriors learned from your experience, under Alpha Galaxy you were treated no differently than
any other warrior who had failed in combat, it was a loss of honor but the loss of honor to the clan was much
more important than any personal failing. The character Star Colonel Paul Moon was another unbelievable
imagining from the IS writers to drive home that CSJ is evil and deserves to be exterminated...the four books
before "Sword and Fire", Exodus Road, Grave Covenant, The Hunters, and Freebrith are all just the writers
trying to convince old Battletech die-hards, like myself and many others, that a faction can be truely evil and
deserves to be exterminated, and that the ones doing it were truely on the righteous path. Sorry not buying
it, not only was it MY Clan, but no faction in Battletech is white as snow...ever.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Because people mistake me for someone else on April 11, 2011, 03:45:40 PM
Adding another fact about Wolves regarding Tukkayid:

Not only had the Wolves have Ulric Kerensky as their Khan, no, they also were able to field not only the "Black Widow", Natasha Kerensky herself, but also newblooded Phelan , the adopted Spheroid.
These 3 people have decided the course for Clan Wolf on Tukkayid by having insight not only in Anastasius Focht´s thinking, but the general tactial modus operandi of the IS and thus enabling them to have ammosupplies, repair points and Mechvariants for long battles throughout the attacking Galaxies supporting their endeavour.

Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: ~SJ~ Amarus on April 11, 2011, 04:07:55 PM
Adding another fact about Wolves regarding Tukkayid:

Not only had the Wolves have Ulric Kerensky as their Khan, no, they also were able to field not only the "Black Widow", Natasha Kerensky herself, but also newblooded Phelan , the adopted Spheroid.
These 3 people have decided the course for Clan Wolf on Tukkayid by having insight not only in Anastasius Focht´s thinking, but the general tactial modus operandi of the IS and thus enabling them to have ammosupplies, repair points and Mechvariants for long battles throughout the attacking Galaxies supporting their endeavour.

Absolutely and utterly correct!

I wish I could say that had the Smoke Jaguars had this information that they would have had a better chance but I do not beleive they would have changed their overall strategy (Headhunter force confuses enemy, assault clusters bring down the hammer) Although they would have brought less ammo dependent variants of their omnimechs, and had they known Anastasius Focht´s thinking they may have countered him better.  Overall I think the ammo thing and mad rushes are what killed most of my fellow warriors. Rushing into the Djinu Swamp was a terrible idea(get bogged down so easily)...esspecially when the comguard knew it inside and out. And many forces reported running out of ammunition about halfway through the fighting, making them either combat ineffective or reducing their combat effectivness by over 50%. Had the Jaguars stocked up on energy based weapons I believe that the outcome of many engagements would have been markedly different, but as for tactical earrors, wellwho knows how they might have gone, or even if they would ahve happened if the Jaguars been better equipt for this compaign.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Because people mistake me for someone else on April 11, 2011, 04:34:43 PM
As the utter warriors the Smoke Jaguars are, I doubt they would have ignored such an information and would have changed their tactics according to the enemies without even need to think twice about it, sending out mentioned Headhunter-Units and real fast Galaxies of mostly energy-based Mechs.
It would have been like the impact of man-made lightning that would have struck the ComStar Forces, flinging them out of the way of the rapidly and disciplined advancing Jaguars.
It would have been glory in the name of the Clan.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: CGB [CoffiNail] on April 11, 2011, 06:44:14 PM
Let us have a group MWLL project of an alternative timeline to the BT world.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: ~SJ~ Amarus on April 11, 2011, 07:27:18 PM
As the utter warriors the Smoke Jaguars are, I doubt they would have ignored such an information and would have changed their tactics according to the enemies without even need to think twice about it, sending out mentioned Headhunter-Units and real fast Galaxies of mostly energy-based Mechs.
It would have been like the impact of man-made lightning that would have struck the ComStar Forces, flinging them out of the way of the rapidly and disciplined advancing Jaguars.
It would have been glory in the name of the Clan.

I can most certainly see that happening...what I thought that would not change was the strict adherence to Zellbringen, Comguard forces would most certainly exploit this viciously.

But otherwise yes you are correct the headhunters would rip through the officers of the Comguard units and the assault clusters would hammer the confused and scattered remains.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Kalon on April 12, 2011, 04:24:42 AM
Quote
Neg, the Jaguar's are very well thought out, traditional and warrior minded. If you actually look at how the Jaguar's bid and fought at Tukayyid then you will realize that it makes perfect sense for who they were as a Clan.

In the Clan honor system, to bid the lowest and win is the most honor, also whoever bids the lowest lands first and has the honor of first blood. Therefore Jaguar's, steeped in tradition, bid the lowest (Jaguar's are known as ruthless bidders) because they wanted the honor of first to land. The Jaguar's outfitted their forces in traditional clan style (which did not afford for a long protracted campaign, like the Comguards had planned) and fought in traditional clan manner (they adhered to Zellbringen even when other clans called a grand melee when Zellbringen was broken by Comguard units.)  The Clans went into this battle with no knowledge of Comguard forces, when the Comguards had every shred of knowledge that anyone could have on the clans, after all they had been watching them for three years straight.

Point is, Jaguar's are not anything close to "LEROY JENKINS!!!!!", they are traditional clan warriors, plan as such, fight as such, and when they have been commited to battle are the most ruthless and savage of all of the clans. But until they are commited, they do have their wits about them, in fact they are quite cunning.

ROFLMAO you can pass that off on people who know nothing about Battletech or have never read a single book but not me. EVERY single clan has the same view as me. Jaguars are brave but that's it. They are reckless, excessively aggressive, much brawn but little brain. They believe if you fight hard enough you will win. They care little for strategy & I challenge you to prove otherwise.

Actually let us use your "explanation" but first let me give you some canon as a preamble:

Quote
All praise the art of batchall and bidding
For it proves our love of peace and tradition.
-- The Remembrance (Clan Wolf), Passage 118, Verse 3, Lines 11-12

Bidding is an ART. It is involves strategy, long term thinking. It is like chess, it is simulated battle. You must think of your moves & not just the move you are about to make but two or three moves ahead while at the same time considering the possible counter of the enemy & countering his counter. A bid would differ based on the planet in question, most importantly terrain e.g. a reduction of aerospace fighters where there is a lot of brush & foliage as opposed to increasing them on a planet that is basically a desert.

You and I are bidding. We both have a trinary of Mechs, Elementals & aerospace fighters at our disposal. Whoever bids lower wins true but bidding is a process. I start to bid but since you are a Jaguar you decide to bid lowest to win. 1 Star of Mechs, 1 Star of Elementals (since Osis was one) & no fighters. No thought was given to the terrain, the outline of the areas where fighting might be heaviest etc. just bid low & win. Please who are you trying to fool? Yes you have won the right to fight but because there was little thought put into it you lose & there is nothing more dishonorable than defeat. I can't recall now but there is a book where a high ranking officer told his subordinates he would rather they lost a small bit of their personal honor if things get tight & call down the troops available from the original bid rather than have the entire clan lose honor by a defeat. If I remember the title I will edit the post & add it.

 Did you mention HONOR? As a Jaguar I thought your keyboard would malfunction when you tried to type that word. Let us not forget that due to the bumbling of the Jaguars, Prince Hohiro escaped & what did they do? Carpet bombed the place oh & by the way it wasn't even like it was a military installation, it was civilians; an act which was so dishonorable that ALL the other clans forswore using orbital bombardment in the campaign from that time forward. Again you can't fool people who have read the books. I give you an A for effort though.

LEEEEERRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYY JEEEEEEENNNNNNNNKKKKKKKIIIIIIIIIINNNNSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Cygma on April 12, 2011, 10:51:02 AM
I always thought Wolves where known neglecting all rules and strategy and balancing that by being ... badass.
Tukayyid actually shows just that, they are (where) really thinking out of the box when they where wardens, but where still very potent in battle.
The abscence of methodic or use of the "planned" way was actually what enabled them to stay very flexible and powerfull.
Euh, wait... thinking outside the box and not using the same old strategies over and over again doesn't imply not using strategies. It just means being more flexible when it comes to choosing strategies and and not being afraid to introduce new ones.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Xarg Talasko on April 12, 2011, 01:03:52 PM
Quote
Neg, the Jaguar's are very well thought out, traditional and warrior minded. If you actually look at how the Jaguar's bid and fought at Tukayyid then you will realize that it makes perfect sense for who they were as a Clan.

In the Clan honor system, to bid the lowest and win is the most honor, also whoever bids the lowest lands first and has the honor of first blood. Therefore Jaguar's, steeped in tradition, bid the lowest (Jaguar's are known as ruthless bidders) because they wanted the honor of first to land. The Jaguar's outfitted their forces in traditional clan style (which did not afford for a long protracted campaign, like the Comguards had planned) and fought in traditional clan manner (they adhered to Zellbringen even when other clans called a grand melee when Zellbringen was broken by Comguard units.)  The Clans went into this battle with no knowledge of Comguard forces, when the Comguards had every shred of knowledge that anyone could have on the clans, after all they had been watching them for three years straight.

Point is, Jaguar's are not anything close to "LEROY JENKINS!!!!!", they are traditional clan warriors, plan as such, fight as such, and when they have been commited to battle are the most ruthless and savage of all of the clans. But until they are commited, they do have their wits about them, in fact they are quite cunning.

ROFLMAO you can pass that off on people who know nothing about Battletech or have never read a single book but not me. EVERY single clan has the same view as me. Jaguars are brave but that's it. They are reckless, excessively aggressive, much brawn but little brain. They believe if you fight hard enough you will win. They care little for strategy & I challenge you to prove otherwise.

Actually let us use your "explanation" but first let me give you some canon as a preamble:

Quote
All praise the art of batchall and bidding
For it proves our love of peace and tradition.
-- The Remembrance (Clan Wolf), Passage 118, Verse 3, Lines 11-12

Bidding is an ART. It is involves strategy, long term thinking. It is like chess, it is simulated battle. You must think of your moves & not just the move you are about to make but two or three moves ahead while at the same time considering the possible counter of the enemy & countering his counter. A bid would differ based on the planet in question, most importantly terrain e.g. a reduction of aerospace fighters where there is a lot of brush & foliage as opposed to increasing them on a planet that is basically a desert.

You and I are bidding. We both have a trinary of Mechs, Elementals & aerospace fighters at our disposal. Whoever bids lower wins true but bidding is a process. I start to bid but since you are a Jaguar you decide to bid lowest to win. 1 Star of Mechs, 1 Star of Elementals (since Osis was one) & no fighters. No thought was given to the terrain, the outline of the areas where fighting might be heaviest etc. just bid low & win. Please who are you trying to fool? Yes you have won the right to fight but because there was little thought put into it you lose & there is nothing more dishonorable than defeat. I can't recall now but there is a book where a high ranking officer told his subordinates he would rather they lost a small bit of their personal honor if things get tight & call down the troops available from the original bid rather than have the entire clan lose honor by a defeat. If I remember the title I will edit the post & add it.

 Did you mention HONOR? As a Jaguar I thought your keyboard would malfunction when you tried to type that word. Let us not forget that due to the bumbling of the Jaguars, Prince Hohiro escaped & what did they do? Carpet bombed the place oh & by the way it wasn't even like it was a military installation, it was civilians; an act which was so dishonorable that ALL the other clans forswore using orbital bombardment in the campaign from that time forward. Again you can't fool people who have read the books. I give you an A for effort though.

LEEEEERRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYY JEEEEEEENNNNNNNNKKKKKKKIIIIIIIIIINNNNSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The other Clans only bid away their WarShips because Phelan Kell told Ulric that bidding away HIS WarShips would gaurantee him the lowest bid to take a planet (which it did). Hard to go below ANY bid Ulric could make while retaining a WarShip.

Y'know, while we're on the 'lets get our facts straight' bender.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Kalon on April 12, 2011, 01:29:46 PM
Quote
The other Clans only bid away their WarShips because Phelan Kell told Ulric that bidding away HIS WarShips would gaurantee him the lowest bid to take a planet (which it did). Hard to go below ANY bid Ulric could make while retaining a WarShip.

Y'know, while we're on the 'lets get our facts straight' bender.

Oh you want to get facts straight? Phelan had his reasons for not wanting the clans to use orbital bombardment true but what you are aiming at is ridiculous.

1. Phelan was a freeborn. If someone was to ask Ulric why he decided not to use orbital bombardment & he said the freeborn told me it would make me look good, they would laugh at him.

2. Ulric was a Warden by him doing that, the Crusaders should have done the opposite. Oh maybe you Wardens have gone soft from the horror of war blah blah blah or something to that effect would have been said. ALL the other clans, Warden AND Crusader, forswore in tandem.

3. Clan A - bids away their warships. Clan B bids away their warships. Bidding goes on. It became standard practice to do away with warships after Ulric initiated it. After that it was never a case of "Oh no they have bid away their Warships, we have lost!" Try again.

The Clans equated Ulric foreswearing oribtial bombardment as a direct result of the Smoke Jaguar's use of it on Turtle Bay & they ALL agreed it was dishonorable & went along with Ulric. As I said try it on someone who hasn't read the books.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Xarg Talasko on April 12, 2011, 01:52:41 PM
Oh you want to get facts straight? Phelan had his reasons for not wanting the clans to use orbital bombardment true but what you are aiming at is ridiculous.

1. Phelan was a freeborn. If someone was to ask Ulric why he decided not to use orbital bombardment & he said the freeborn told me it would make me look good, they would laugh at him.

2. Ulric was a Warden by him doing that, the Crusaders should have done the opposite. Oh maybe you Wardens have gone soft from the horror of war blah blah blah or something to that effect would have been said. ALL the other clans, Warden AND Crusader, forswore in tandem.

3. Clan A - bids away their warships. Clan B bids away their warships. Bidding goes on. It became standard practice to do away with warships after Ulric initiated it. After that it was never a case of "Oh no they have bid away their Warships, we have lost!" Try again.

The Clans equated Ulric foreswearing oribtial bombardment as a direct result of the Smoke Jaguar's use of it on Turtle Bay & they ALL agreed it was dishonorable & went along with Ulric. As I said try it on someone who hasn't read the books.

U mad son?

1. That's irrelevant, the decision to bid away the WarShips was Ulric's and Ulric's alone to make. He didn't have to listen to Phelan.

2. That is ridiculous. There is no way for a Crusader to not bid away his WarShips and still have a low enough bid to take a planet. This would be shameful to the Crusader, and a bad reflection on their ability to bid. Your claim the Crusader should do the opposite is utter tripe, you can't take a planet you can't land on.

3. Thanks for validating my point, you tool.

Ulric bid away the WarShips as a 2 prong strategy. Prong 1, it avoided another incident like Turtle Bay, which would destroy any Clan credibility in claiming to be there to establish a new Star League. Prong 2, it gave him a massive headstart on the bidding for that first world, and would have rocked all of the other invading Clans that he had the balls to bid away something as powerful as a WarShip.

Go read the books again, you've got no idea what you're talking about.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Kalon on April 12, 2011, 02:15:30 PM
Quote
U mad son?

1. That's irrelevant, the decision to bid away the WarShips was Ulric's and Ulric's alone to make. He didn't have to listen to Phelan.

2. That is ridiculous. There is no way for a Crusader to not bid away his WarShips and still have a low enough bid to take a planet. This would be shameful to the Crusader, and a bad reflection on their ability to bid. Your claim the Crusader should do the opposite is utter tripe, you can't take a planet you can't land on.

3. Thanks for validating my point, you tool.

Ulric bid away the WarShips as a 2 prong strategy. Prong 1, it avoided another incident like Turtle Bay, which would destroy any Clan credibility in claiming to be there to establish a new Star League. Prong 2, it gave him a massive headstart on the bidding for that first world, and would have rocked all of the other invading Clans that he had the balls to bid away something as powerful as a WarShip.
Go read the books again, you've got no idea what you're talking about.

1. True it was his decision to make in the end but he did not initialize that line of thought now did he? Very relevant.

2&3 You're speaking utter rubbish & your point is not validated. Warships have up to that point been part of the arsenal. Nobody has given them a thought as the only things actually been used are what are bid away i.e. mechs, elementals & aerospace fighters. Now RIGHT after Turtle Bay it becomes a matter of importance? I don't have to read over anything son, I understood what I read. It basically became a formality after that. Any Clans bidding after that bid away their warships at the START of proceedings because it shows everyone they will not be committing any dishonorable deeds. Why not start off as normal then if things got tight, use it as an Ace in the Hole?

"I remove all my Elementals"

"oooooooooooooooooooo"

"I remove my Warships"

"OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"

They all did it at the START of proceedings.  They were setting a precedence that the Smoke Jaguars ostracized themselves by that dishonorable act. Don't try that nonsense with me.

Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Xarg Talasko on April 12, 2011, 02:44:55 PM
Learn to quote properly please, you accidentally took my parting shot out of my quote and put it in your post as if you came up with it.

My second point is perfectly valid. A WarShip would be worth multiple trinaries, perhaps even multiple galaxies of troops depending on what class the WarShip is. If you can bid away a WarShip that can't take a planet because it can't enter the atmosphere, while substituting a galaxy or two and still coming out ahead in the bidding, the only option your opponent can take is to match your bid, then remove even more assets from his bid.

Any Crusader going the other way by refusing to bid away his WarShips will not only lose every single bid on the first round, he will bring shame upon his Clan. The Clans are driven by honour and glory, so bidding away your WarShip is not an option once the opponent does it. There is no choice, you just do it. It doesn't matter that they were part of the arsenal before, they were never used for orbital bombardment before Turtle Bay either. Bidding away your biggest and most powerful asset (the WarShip) while simultaneously being able to put an absolute truckload more troops on planet while still bidding lower, is not only crafty bidding, but the first time it happened, you can just imagine the other Khans breaking into a nervous sweat that such a huge pile of guns were bid away straight away.

Point 3 you did validate. I stated that once Ulric bid away his WarShips, anyone who wished to even have a GLIMMER of a DREAM of bidding for the planet, would have to follow suit. Sure Phelan put him up to it, with his unique understanding of how things work in the IS, but it is entirely within the realm of possibility that Ulric would have come to that conclusion by himself, given enough time. What is the biggest pile of guns you have bid before? WarShip. What asset have you never had to use? WarShip. What can you bid away to give you a truckload more aerospace, battlemechs and elementals on the ground? WarShip. You pretty much said the same thing and agreed with me. Once Ulric bid away the WarShips he wasn't even using once, allowing him a vastly larger ground force, aside from something silly like his planetside troops being nuked, why wouldn't he do it every time? Everyone following suit was forced to, to avoid being unable to take a planet ever again, since Clan Wolf could just bid anywhere with (massive troops) - (WarShip)(assuming they were able to bid outside of their invasion corridor, of course).

To remain competitive, you must bid away your WarShip. You agreed with me, validating my point from a different angle of the same argument. The Smoke Jaguars certainly did themselves no favours with the orbital bombardment, though from their point of view it was probably justified at the time. The Clans don't follow the Ares Conventions, so orbital bombardment is not illegal for them. From my point of view, bidding away a WarShip isn't such a huge trump card when you replace it with enormous numbers of planetside troops, I imagine the biggest shock would have probably been from the break in tradition with bidding the WarShip. I also figure that if anyone was dumb enough to fire on the unbid WarShip, it would be free to defend itself without breaking the bid, giving Ulric yet another legup, because he's able to keep the space above the planet completely safe, or the enemy gets their face blasted off in space too.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Because people mistake me for someone else on April 12, 2011, 04:24:19 PM
Amen, Xarg.
Lore is important to us Clanners.
Dont come trying to mess with it, we know it quite full and well.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: CGB [CoffiNail] on April 12, 2011, 05:19:36 PM
Freebirths... Twisting words to meet themselves without what they preach in their hands.

I Quote from Lethal Heritage, Micheal A. Stackpole, 1989
Quote
"Aff, Khan Ulric." Phelan saw by Ulric's reaction that he had expected a negative response. I can't let happen to Rasalhague what happened on Turtle Bay. "I know of something that will guarantee you win the bidding." For the first time, Phelan saw uncertainty on the older man's face, and it worried him. Have I overplayed my hand? Have I made myself a danger to him and the Clans?
Ulric's features settled into an impassive mask. "What is it?"
Now or never. "Bid away the Dire Wolf."
The mercenary's answer brought a momentary look of shock to the Khan's face, but it faded quickly. "You do not know what you are suggesting." Even as Ulric spoke, his gaze flicked over Phelan, seeming to reassess what the bondsman had become.
Phelan straightened up. "I believe I do, Khan Ulric." The Kell Hound suddenly found his mouth going dry. "I saw the holovid of the Sabre Cat, the Smoke Jaguar flagship, lasing Edo to put an end to the riots there. I watched as missiles leveled buildings and lasers stabbed down from high orbit to melt the streets. The Sawagashii River boiled away to nothing! In a matter of minutes, a city of over a million was reduced to a charred, glassy scar on the face of the planet. How can you say I don't know what I'm asking?"
"Even the ilKhan believed that a prison break and six weeks of riots were not enough to justify that sort of retaliation." The Khan's eyes focused beyond the holotank. "I give you my word that I will never so level a world."
Phelan's hands convulsed into fists as Kenny Ryan's words echoed in his mind. "I know that and I believe it, or I wouldn't have helped you plan your assault on a free world. The problem is that I don't know that about Bjorn." The mercenary forced his hands open and rubbed at his temples. "I know the Dire Wolf is capable of the same planetary bombardments and assaults, and I know it's been kept like an ace in the hole in case you run into something you can't handle."
His head came up and his hands dropped back down to his sides. "I requested and got information on Bjorn. His holograph showed four-pointed gold stars on his collar where you wear the red dagger-stars. Ranna told me the red dagger-stars indicate someone who is a MechWarrior and that the gold stars are worn by those who come up through the Orbital Craft branch of your services. That tells me that Bjorn, no matter who or what he has advising him, is going to be dependent—consciously or unconsciously—on DropShip and JumpShip resources.
"Because Rasalhague actually does lie in your invasion zone, you will bid first. I know that the winner of the bidding has the right to bring down as much force as he offers in his first bid, and I know the first few bids are preliminaries to set the stage for the bidding war." Phelan felt the pulse pounding in his temples, but made no attempt to control his anger. "If your bid does not include the Dire Wolf, Bjorn will have to eliminate the Ursa Major from his first offer, or he will concede defeat with the opening bid. You'll put him off balance from the start. He'll never get back on line quickly enough to oppose you effectively."

The bid was not due to the orbital bombardment from the clan perspective.  Although as you can read there. The IlKhan himself thought that it was not necessary for the city of turtle bay to be destroied in such a wasteful manner.  This was done by the Saber Cat's Commander/Commander of turtle Bay's garrison force.  It was a few SJs not the whole clan.  The other clans saw this as wasteful, not necessarily dishonorable.  The Clans understand that lower caste sometimes do have to be harmed. All costs are taken so it does not happen.  You would be pretty pissed too if you were in charge of the planet and your forces could not capture the heir to the realm you are invading, quiaff? Slipped under your fingers, damn freebirths rebelling against the might of the clans! Show them the warrior caste is in charge now!  zzZZZZWWWWWOOOOOMMMMMMMPPPPFFFF

*edit*

You can read here that for the clans it was a means of throwing off Khan Bjorn of Ghost Bear.  As he was a member of the Naval assest of Ghost bear this was to throw him very much for a loop. Phelans hope was that no more orbital bombardments would happen, not the Clans hope.  This practice was followed, as well, cannot out bid a warship.  Even Ulric disliked the idea of not bidding the Dire Wolf, he only did so because Phelan asked him to, and in return Ulric had his promise of not passing on any information that Ulric was giving him access to.

As well as stated here,
Quote
Sharilar Mori looked over at the Primus, who nodded permission to speak. "You confuse your arguments, Precentor Tharkad. If the Primus failed to mention Phelan Kell's part in the decision to abandon planetary bombardment, it is because the important fact is that the bombardments have stopped and are unlikely to continue. The Wolf Clan's third and preemptive fourth waves have shown this perfectly.
"As for the role of social pressures in the Clan society, we keep hearing about the pressure to conform and to out-do the others. That Khan Ulric of the Wolves bid away the Dire Wolf in his negotiations with Khan Bjorn of the Ghost Bears cost Bjorn mightily and has elevated Ulric in the esteem of others, including his rivals. In their quest for glory, others have imitated Ulric by bidding away even more than the support of the warships in their contests over who may attack a world. As the latest reports from Engadin indicate, this has created some difficulty. It may not stop the Clans' advance, but it will slow it."

The practice of bidding away the Warships only happened to out do that bid, to go, Look I have better forces then even Ulric of the Wolves.

;)

*second edit*
Amen, Xarg.
Lore is important to us Clanners.
Dont come trying to mess with it, we know it quite full and well.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Kalon on April 13, 2011, 01:28:35 PM
My apologies for the late reply, I was out last night celebrating one of my sports team's victory.

Xarg I also apologize for the improper quote. Maybe in my haste the mouse went upward when I was highlighting. It was not intentional.

Going back to my original point, the Jaguars bumbled the Hohiro thing then carpet bombed the place. Oh thanks for the quote CoffiNail you have reinforced my point that it was Phelan's idea to start with because he wanted to protect his precious Inner Sphere.

The argument that it was a few Jaguars has no bearing as Clans have as a whole paid the price for the misdeeds of a few or sometimes one member. This will also go back to my previous question of the mistreatment of Horse. You wear the uniform you represent the Clan.

Oh by the way CoffiNail I do not yet have Living Legends however I do still have MW4: Mercenaries. If you do have it I would relish the opportunity to meet you on the battlefield to discuss that freebirth comment.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: CGB [CoffiNail] on April 13, 2011, 03:26:09 PM
Oh by the way CoffiNail I do not yet have Living Legends however I do still have MW4: Mercenaries. If you do have it I would relish the opportunity to meet you on the battlefield to discuss that freebirth comment.

Neg, but when you get MWLL and get up to speed I welcome the opportunity to meet you on the battlefield.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Kalon on April 14, 2011, 01:23:34 AM
Indeed. My fears of of the Maximum Edition DRM have been allayed. As long as Amazon still has in stock by the time I get paid,I should be joining you shortly.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: SquareSphere on April 14, 2011, 05:45:53 PM
I say go ahead and download the mod files, so when you get your Wars copy you don't have to wait ;)
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Kalon on April 15, 2011, 04:54:42 AM
I have  Full 0.3.0.exe, Patch 0.3.1 & Patch 0.3.2. How many more do I need?
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: CGB [CoffiNail] on April 15, 2011, 08:31:16 AM
I have  Full 0.3.0.exe, Patch 0.3.1 & Patch 0.3.2. How many more do I need?
well, 10 things would be 0.4.0-0.4.9 which is what we are currently on ;)

http://forum.mechlivinglegends.net/index.php/topic,13601.msg215970.html#msg215970
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Az on April 15, 2011, 08:34:26 AM
As CoffiNail said. You can archive your 0.3.x files for posterity, but you don't need them any more :p

Can anyone else think of a way we can help this gentleman out?

Manually downloading the pieces?

0.4.0 Full Install     : http://www.mwlldownload.com/download/MWLL-OpenBeta-Full-0.4.0.zip
0.4.0 > 0.4.1 Patch: http://www.mwlldownload.com/download/MWLL-OpenBeta-Patch-0.4.1.zip
0.4.1 > 0.4.2 Patch: http://www.mwlldownload.com/download/MWLL-OpenBeta-Patch-0.4.2.zip
0.4.2 > 0.4.3 Patch: http://www.mwlldownload.com/download/MWLL-OpenBeta-Patch-0.4.3.zip
0.4.3 > 0.4.4 Patch: http://www.mwlldownload.com/download/MWLL-OpenBeta-Patch-0.4.4.zip
0.4.4 > 0.4.5 Patch: http://www.mwlldownload.com/download/MWLL-OpenBeta-Patch-0.4.5.zip
0.4.5 > 0.4.6 Patch: http://www.mwlldownload.com/download/MWLL-OpenBeta-Patch-0.4.6.zip
0.4.6 > 0.4.7 Patch: http://www.mwlldownload.com/download/MWLL-OpenBeta-Patch-0.4.7.zip
0.4.7 > 0.4.8 Patch: http://www.mwlldownload.com/download/MWLL-OpenBeta-Patch-0.4.8.zip
0.4.8 > 0.4.9 Patch: http://www.mwlldownload.com/download/MWLL-OpenBeta-Patch-0.4.9.zip

:-X

And of course you'll also need the installer : http://www.mwlldownload.com/download/MWLL-CrysisWars-OpenBeta-Full-0.4.0.exe

Put the file you downloaded where the installer expects them, and run the AutoUpdater for each patch. But beware: the "keep files" checkbox is bugged, the updater will delete the zip archives after installation. If you want to keep your installation files, either make a copy or write-protect them.


 Crysis Wars
 └───Mods
     └───mwll
         └───Updates
             ├───MWLL.0.0.0-to-0.4.0
             │       MWLL-OpenBeta-Full-0.4.0.zip
             │
             ├───MWLL.0.4.0-to-0.4.1
             │       MWLL-OpenBeta-Patch-0.4.1.zip
           [...]
             └───MWLL.0.4.8-to-0.4.9
                     MWLL-OpenBeta-Patch-0.4.9.zip


You can also download the patches using BitTorrent, but at this point I'm not certain it will improve your download speed. Just replace the .zip extensions with .torrent in the URLs.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Xarg Talasko on April 15, 2011, 11:14:36 AM
Why do people keep downloading 0.3x? Where do they even get these files from..
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: ~SJ~ Amarus on April 15, 2011, 03:20:16 PM
Going back to my original point, the Jaguars bumbled the Hohiro thing then carpet bombed the place. Oh thanks for the quote CoffiNail you have reinforced my point that it was Phelan's idea to start with because he wanted to protect his precious Inner Sphere.

The argument that it was a few Jaguars has no bearing as Clans have as a whole paid the price for the misdeeds of a few or sometimes one member. This will also go back to my previous question of the mistreatment of Horse. You wear the uniform you represent the Clan.

My apologies for not being here to respond to your accusations and pointed drivel.  First off before you start the whole, " I read the novels so I know how it went" arguement, not all of the story is in the novels (SHOCKER) You need to read source books, battletechnology magazine, and senario packages...and even then the whole story is not there because of a very cleverly writing style developed by FASA. The whole series is written with 'information' that Comstar has, so obviously there are going to be glaring holes and information errors. Now before you go off about how anyone can know any of the extra information then, well let me put it simply...get to know FASA people, they hang around more than you think.

There is a whole thread just from people trying to tell me how the Bombardment of Edo was evil and my Clan is bad and we should feel shame, so I have already argued this to death and by the way no, in Clan honor code there was no shame in what the Jaguar did, you might want to try and figure that one out before you
respond with the vitrol you normally do.  So anyway point of me saying that is I am not going to argue this
again, you are #'I do not even care to remember' person who has brought this up, and your self righteous
attacks on my clan's honor do not phase me.

And as for Horse, please remember that those of that series of books to be completely tainted by "bad guy
good guy syndrom" The writers for the Inner Sphere needed a bad guy so they picked up us Jags. If we were the clan I know us to be Rossou Howell would have been called to trial and killed as he started that BS with Horse, he was losing it and every warrior on Huntress knew it. But as for the actual book, the guy was a douche and I am not going to defend his actions.

So now my question to you is, where did you come from that you ask us simple questions we give the answers
and then you tell us we are wrong? Why would we lie, just about everyone on this board has BTU knowledge
so that shit would not fly. If you think you know everything about the clans from reading "The Blood of
Kerensky" and "The Twilight of the Clans" series then you have much much more research to do. Those books
make it seem to show the Point of View of the Clans but if you will notice it is not so, all it does is show what is
going on. It does not go into any amount of depth as it does with IS factions, also when the Clans are being
portrayed, their goals are always repugnant to the person writing, you can tell by ther wording they use to
describe things.

So with all that said, unless you have any NEW argument to offer the conversation other than the same old rehashed arguments I have heard for years, from people who have not read as much as they think they have, then I think we are done here.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: ChuggyG on April 15, 2011, 03:47:42 PM
Going back to my original point, the Jaguars bumbled the Hohiro thing then carpet bombed the place. Oh thanks for the quote CoffiNail you have reinforced my point that it was Phelan's idea to start with because he wanted to protect his precious Inner Sphere.

The argument that it was a few Jaguars has no bearing as Clans have as a whole paid the price for the misdeeds of a few or sometimes one member. This will also go back to my previous question of the mistreatment of Horse. You wear the uniform you represent the Clan.

My apologies for not being here to respond to your accusations and pointed drivel.  First off before you start the whole, " I read the novels so I know how it went" arguement, not all of the story is in the novels (SHOCKER) You need to read source books, battletechnology magazine, and senario packages...and even then the whole story is not there because of a very cleverly writing style developed by FASA. The whole series is written with 'information' that Comstar has, so obviously there are going to be glaring holes and information errors. Now before you go off about how anyone can know any of the extra information then, well let me put it simply...get to know FASA people, they hang around more than you think.

There is a whole thread just from people trying to tell me how the Bombardment of Edo was evil and my Clan is bad and we should feel shame, so I have already argued this to death and by the way no, in Clan honor code there was no shame in what the Jaguar did, you might want to try and figure that one out before you
respond with the vitrol you normally do.  So anyway point of me saying that is I am not going to argue this
again, you are #'I do not even care to remember' person who has brought this up, and your self righteous
attacks on my clan's honor do not phase me.

And as for Horse, please remember that those of that series of books to be completely tainted by "bad guy
good guy syndrom" The writers for the Inner Sphere needed a bad guy so they picked up us Jags. If we were the clan I know us to be Rossou Howell would have been called to trial and killed as he started that BS with Horse, he was losing it and every warrior on Huntress knew it. But as for the actual book, the guy was a douche and I am not going to defend his actions.

So now my question to you is, where did you come from that you ask us simple questions we give the answers
and then you tell us we are wrong? Why would we lie, just about everyone on this board has BTU knowledge
so that shit would not fly. If you think you know everything about the clans from reading "The Blood of
Kerensky" and "The Twilight of the Clans" series then you have much much more research to do. Those books
make it seem to show the Point of View of the Clans but if you will notice it is not so, all it does is show what is
going on. It does not go into any amount of depth as it does with IS factions, also when the Clans are being
portrayed, their goals are always repugnant to the person writing, you can tell by ther wording they use to
describe things.

So with all that said, unless you have any NEW argument to offer the conversation other than the same old rehashed arguments I have heard for years, from people who have not read as much as they think they have, then I think we are done here.

Is this how you normally go about discussion with people?  The written equivalent of shock and awe tactics?

The main reason I'm replying to this is because 'getting to know FASA people' has absolutely knowing to do with an individual's knowledge or understanding of battletech canon, since nothing a 'FASA person' says is necessarily any more or less setting accurate than what anyone -else- has to say.  To be canon, it needs to be in a piece of official BT material, be it FASA, WizKids or Catalyst, and heresay from FASA staff doesn't really qualify.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: CGB [CoffiNail] on April 15, 2011, 03:56:20 PM

Is this how you normally go about discussion with people?  The written equivalent of shock and awe tactics?

The main reason I'm replying to this is because 'getting to know FASA people' has absolutely knowing to do with an individual's knowledge or understanding of battletech canon, since nothing a 'FASA person' says is necessarily any more or less setting accurate than what anyone -else- has to say.  To be canon, it needs to be in a piece of official BT material, be it FASA, WizKids or Catalyst, and heresay from FASA staff doesn't really qualify.

He is a traditional Smoke Jaguar, he does not waste time. ;)  What he is meaning is that knowing someone who worked at FASA at the time the clans were being written out and people had huge interest at this time so a lot was written out.  There is a lot that may never have been published at game wise it was more irrelivent to publishing, and was left out.  Plus having people confirm his thoughts on the SJ just being made the bad guy to further the plot...
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: ChuggyG on April 15, 2011, 04:03:57 PM
He is a traditional Smoke Jaguar, he does not waste time. ;)  What he is meaning is that knowing someone who worked at FASA at the time the clans were being written out and people had huge interest at this time so a lot was written out.  There is a lot that may never have been published at game wise it was more irrelivent to publishing, and was left out.  Plus having people confirm his thoughts on the SJ just being made the bad guy to further the plot...

No, he just gets exteriminated by the IS .  ; )

I don't think that's really valid either.  For example, if something -were- left out?  You don't have a metaphorical roofie with which to lay low your allegedly uninformed opposition when talking about something.  You have an irrelevant tidbit of information that is exactly what it was.  Something that got written out.

I played GW games for a long time (I have only regrets) and the last people you would go to for canicol fluff/lore information were people who had any connection to GW.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: ~SJ~ Amarus on April 15, 2011, 05:19:34 PM
Going back to my original point, the Jaguars bumbled the Hohiro thing then carpet bombed the place. Oh thanks for the quote CoffiNail you have reinforced my point that it was Phelan's idea to start with because he wanted to protect his precious Inner Sphere.

The argument that it was a few Jaguars has no bearing as Clans have as a whole paid the price for the misdeeds of a few or sometimes one member. This will also go back to my previous question of the mistreatment of Horse. You wear the uniform you represent the Clan.

My apologies for not being here to respond to your accusations and pointed drivel.  First off before you start the whole, " I read the novels so I know how it went" arguement, not all of the story is in the novels (SHOCKER) You need to read source books, battletechnology magazine, and senario packages...and even then the whole story is not there because of a very cleverly writing style developed by FASA. The whole series is written with 'information' that Comstar has, so obviously there are going to be glaring holes and information errors. Now before you go off about how anyone can know any of the extra information then, well let me put it simply...get to know FASA people, they hang around more than you think.

There is a whole thread just from people trying to tell me how the Bombardment of Edo was evil and my Clan is bad and we should feel shame, so I have already argued this to death and by the way no, in Clan honor code there was no shame in what the Jaguar did, you might want to try and figure that one out before you
respond with the vitrol you normally do.  So anyway point of me saying that is I am not going to argue this
again, you are #'I do not even care to remember' person who has brought this up, and your self righteous
attacks on my clan's honor do not phase me.

And as for Horse, please remember that those of that series of books to be completely tainted by "bad guy
good guy syndrom" The writers for the Inner Sphere needed a bad guy so they picked up us Jags. If we were the clan I know us to be Rossou Howell would have been called to trial and killed as he started that BS with Horse, he was losing it and every warrior on Huntress knew it. But as for the actual book, the guy was a douche and I am not going to defend his actions.

So now my question to you is, where did you come from that you ask us simple questions we give the answers
and then you tell us we are wrong? Why would we lie, just about everyone on this board has BTU knowledge
so that shit would not fly. If you think you know everything about the clans from reading "The Blood of
Kerensky" and "The Twilight of the Clans" series then you have much much more research to do. Those books
make it seem to show the Point of View of the Clans but if you will notice it is not so, all it does is show what is
going on. It does not go into any amount of depth as it does with IS factions, also when the Clans are being
portrayed, their goals are always repugnant to the person writing, you can tell by ther wording they use to
describe things.

So with all that said, unless you have any NEW argument to offer the conversation other than the same old rehashed arguments I have heard for years, from people who have not read as much as they think they have, then I think we are done here.

Is this how you normally go about discussion with people?  The written equivalent of shock and awe tactics?

The main reason I'm replying to this is because 'getting to know FASA people' has absolutely knowing to do with an individual's knowledge or understanding of battletech canon, since nothing a 'FASA person' says is necessarily any more or less setting accurate than what anyone -else- has to say.  To be canon, it needs to be in a piece of official BT material, be it FASA, WizKids or Catalyst, and heresay from FASA staff doesn't really qualify.

No it is not how I normally discuss with people, his afront to my honor is what set me off. Trying to say that I was trying to schmooze the facts is something I do not care for. So yes I threw respectful debate out the window if the first response I get from him is half troll and half calling me a liar.

As per your issue with my 'get to know the FASA people' comment, it is based upon the fact that I do know FASA people and they had worked on the game specifically with the original creator of the universe (Babcock) (he had a beginning middle and end, when FASA tanked and other companies picked it up, see Wizkidz, catalyst ect that is when the timeline went screwy) Also they know all the intracacies of the clans and IS factions because the whole thing was created by people playing those factions, so regardless of whether or not the information made it to print, they know exactly what certain characters and factions were/are like. Also the writers of the books know a lot of information that did not make it to print, it is quite interesting if you just listen to them, there is so much for to the BTU that we never got to experience because FASA tanked...if that had not happened I know a BT revival was right around the corner, but instead they focused on video games, which is what killed them in my opinion. But that is off topic. anyway I do hope you understand where I am coming from with that comment now, it is not meant as a snub but as a 'they really do know extra info' type thing.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Kalon on April 15, 2011, 05:23:29 PM
I do not care what you feel, if you argued the point already, if you are phased or not or anything else you stated. Let me remind you the conversation started off with a QUESTION to YOU about the treatment of Horse in Freebirth. Xarg jumped in & that is how we got to this point. For the record I DO have the sourcebooks, tech readouts & scenario packs as well but sadly I did not know anyone in FASA at the time any of the material was being written so according to you I am hopelessly lost & know nothing about BT. My apologies for ever doubting the word of someone like yourself who has connections to FASA. Please forgive me mighty one! Apparently you two think this is a WWE tag team handicap match or something but I really do no care. The facts speak for themselves.

EDIT: You need to check yourself. I asked you a question then Xarg jumped in. My FIRST reply to YOU was about the art of bidding. No attack on your honor was made. I think because you two keep interchanging you are getting confused.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: ~SJ~ Amarus on April 15, 2011, 05:23:49 PM
He is a traditional Smoke Jaguar, he does not waste time. ;)  What he is meaning is that knowing someone who worked at FASA at the time the clans were being written out and people had huge interest at this time so a lot was written out.  There is a lot that may never have been published at game wise it was more irrelivent to publishing, and was left out.  Plus having people confirm his thoughts on the SJ just being made the bad guy to further the plot...

No, he just gets exteriminated by the IS .  ; )

I don't think that's really valid either.  For example, if something -were- left out?

First off the Jaguar's are not dead, they are alive and I can say no more than thus...it is in the books you just have to find it.

Second Thanks Coffin nail for your support, Jags normally only have themselves to rely on.

And to respond to the comment that I quoted of your last post ChuggyG, they were not "left out" they did not have the time or money to impliment them properly and thus they were "bought out" more than anything else, and when another company picked up the sotry line they looked at the notes and said...nahhhh we wanna do it like this....completely throwing Babcock's story out the window
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: ~SJ~ Amarus on April 15, 2011, 05:25:36 PM
My apologies for ever doubting the word of someone like yourself who has connections to FASA. Please forgive me mighty one! Apparently you two think this is a WWE tag team handicap match or something but I really do no care. The facts speak for themselves.

You are forgiven mortal, you all make mistakes eventually 8)

And I never know when Xarg is going to jump in, but I do throughly enjoy it when he does, the guy knows his stuff.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Kalon on April 15, 2011, 05:30:34 PM
Oh you wiped the sarcasm off before you ate the reply I see. :)
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: ChuggyG on April 15, 2011, 05:36:21 PM
And to respond to the comment that I quoted of your last post ChuggyG, they were not "left out" they did not have the time or money to impliment them properly and thus they were "bought out" more than anything else, and when another company picked up the sotry line they looked at the notes and said...nahhhh we wanna do it like this....completely throwing Babcock's story out the window

-Unfortunately-, that is what we have to work with.  Your own personal canon does NOT count in the sphere of open debate.

Oh, yes, and I retract the shock and awe statement as I probably didn't look far enough back in the thread to make an informed comment.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: ~SJ~ Amarus on April 15, 2011, 05:48:06 PM
Oh you wiped the sarcasm off before you ate the reply I see. :)

The only thing I am eatting right now is a sandwich that has salami, pepperoni, serria turkey, and american cheese on it.
And to respond to the comment that I quoted of your last post ChuggyG, they were not "left out" they did not have the time or money to impliment them properly and thus they were "bought out" more than anything else, and when another company picked up the sotry line they looked at the notes and said...nahhhh we wanna do it like this....completely throwing Babcock's story out the window

-Unfortunately-, that is what we have to work with.  Your own personal canon does NOT count in the sphere of open debate.

Oh, yes, and I retract the shock and awe statement as I probable didn't look far enough back in the thread to make an informed comment.

*sigh* I know that is how many people feel, but knowing what I know makes it very difficult to accept anything else. No matter I will be vindicated in the future ;)

And thank you for your understanding at my clipped comments.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Gravecoast on April 15, 2011, 05:56:06 PM
I think someone is just a bit grouchy that he gets his ass handed to him by the Jade Falcons every time he tries to fight us. And we do not even have to try.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: ChuggyG on April 15, 2011, 05:58:16 PM
I think someone is just a bit grouchy that he gets his ass handed to him by the Jade Falcons every time he tries to fight us. And we do not even have to try.

Are we talking about Kalon, or me? 
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Gravecoast on April 15, 2011, 06:00:54 PM
There Sphereoid with the fedcom symbol of course!
And you shall learn to fear the Viper omnimech.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: ChuggyG on April 15, 2011, 06:04:00 PM
There Sphereoid with the fedcom symbol of course!
And you shall learn to fear the Viper omnimech.

Just because the rest of FedCom doesn't know which way to shoot doesn't mean -I- have ever lost a battle to a Falconer, or any Clanner for that matter.

Well lucky me the Viper doesn't happen to be in this particular game, heh.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Gravecoast on April 15, 2011, 06:06:01 PM
Oh i do not play MWLL.

Only CBT, if need you can confirm with Amarus.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: ChuggyG on April 15, 2011, 06:09:09 PM
Oh i do not play MWLL.

Only CBT, if need you can confirm with Amarus.

Oh!  Well, isn't that something, I suppose I assumed that everyone on this here forum played.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: ~SJ~ Amarus on April 15, 2011, 06:11:20 PM
Oh i do not play MWLL.

Only CBT, if need you can confirm with Amarus.

Oh!  Well, isn't that something, I suppose I assumed that everyone on this here forum played.

He did at one point...but our current campaign has us somewhat preoccupied, yes he does actually fight as a Falcon. ;D
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Kelmola on April 15, 2011, 07:20:18 PM
First off the Jaguar's are not dead, they are alive and I can say no more than thus...it is in the books you just have to find it.
Well I can say more, but I put it in spoiler tags nevertheless ;) There are small pieces of post-Refusal fluff (some of that even pre-3067) indicating that some Jaguars still carrying the markings of their Clan were not accounted for, and were not absorbed by other Clans either, leaving open the possibility for them to return should the writers wish so...

... of course, then the ever-so-wonderful Dark Age reveals us that [spoiler]post-Jihad, the Jaguar survivors become the Fidelis, a super-secret elite strike force obliged to stay hidden while serving the Republic of the Sphere, led by none other than Paul Moon himself. WAT. Fortunately, this development is soon retconned in the same story, as the Fidelis are freed of their servitude to the Republic and are given freedom to go on as they wish, and with the discontinuing of MWDA, they did not appear in the fluff after this which lets one free to believe that they could still re-establish CSJ. Surrender Your Dreams is the book you are looking for.[/spoiler] ::)
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: ~SJ~ Amarus on April 15, 2011, 07:42:15 PM
OH GOD NOT THAT!!!

I never EVER am referencing MWDA...man *facepalm*
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: ChuggyG on April 16, 2011, 01:54:09 AM
OH GOD NOT THAT!!!

I never EVER am referencing MWDA...man *facepalm*

Actually, MechWarrior Age of Destruction is an oft misunderstood and actually pretty interesting era.  If you don't dismiss it and the Jihad era out of hand.  The Dark Age Turning Points:  Liao e-booklet was pretty sweet, if I do say so myself.  And I'm relatively certain that Smoke Jaguar was all but exterminated, save for the Dark Age reference.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: ~SJ~Azov on April 16, 2011, 09:38:55 AM
Amarus, I know it's frustrating, but you are cutting a fine line, and before you get too excited and zealous, I think this is where this discussion ends for you.

However we can all agree that dark age is a mistake that needs to be fixed. :-X
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: ChuggyG on April 16, 2011, 09:40:48 AM
However we can all agree that dark age is a mistake that needs to be fixed. :-X

Speak for yourself.  It's not all industrial mechs and crappy toys, you know.  At least... ... not anymore.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: ~SJ~ Amarus on April 18, 2011, 12:56:16 PM
Amarus, I know it's frustrating, but you are cutting a fine line, and before you get too excited and zealous, I think this is where this discussion ends for you.

However we can all agree that dark age is a mistake that needs to be fixed. :-X

Oh do not worry my friend, I was done and that is why I broke of from the conversation...I was going to explode that is why I had to leave ;D
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: ~SJ~ Amarus on April 18, 2011, 01:03:35 PM
However we can all agree that dark age is a mistake that needs to be fixed. :-X

Speak for yourself.  It's not all industrial mechs and crappy toys, you know.  At least... ... not anymore.

It is essentially and alternate universe spin off of the originally battletech story line, that is why most of us do not subscribe to it. It is a watered down version of the Battletech universe, I find that it does not have thes tory depth or believablitiy that the original story line had.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: ChuggyG on April 21, 2011, 02:54:20 AM
However we can all agree that dark age is a mistake that needs to be fixed. :-X

Speak for yourself.  It's not all industrial mechs and crappy toys, you know.  At least... ... not anymore.

It is essentially and alternate universe spin off of the originally battletech story line, that is why most of us do not subscribe to it. It is a watered down version of the Battletech universe, I find that it does not have thes tory depth or believablitiy that the original story line had.

Support your claims, boy!

It's slowly being developed, as Catalyst works it's way into the future.  Give it time.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: «Çߧ» Trooper_Thorn on April 21, 2011, 12:53:56 PM
There is an old Axiom, "give your customer what they want and you will go far." Most true Battletech fans at least the ones who have been here since the beginning, see "dark ages" as an alternative universe pile-o-crap and should be scrapped altogether. Jihad I can understand because of Com Star's hidden army from the original story line and their fanaticism. Catalyst would be best served doing the old,"Leader of Fed suns awakes after a terrible nightmare "Dark ages" and starts to move the IS toward a more enlightened policy with the Clan now knocking at the door with the time for resumption of the Invasion and Comstar with its Jihad leading mankind into the abyss." There is so much that can be written about that is far more exiting and continuing the wonderful work that was accomplished before the abortion known as Dark Ages.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: ChuggyG on April 21, 2011, 01:13:13 PM
There is an old Axiom, "give your customer what they want and you will go far." Most true Battletech fans at least the ones who have been here since the beginning, see "dark ages" as an alternative universe pile-o-crap and should be scrapped altogether. Jihad I can understand because of Com Star's hidden army from the original story line and their fanaticism. Catalyst would be best served doing the old,"Leader of Fed suns awakes after a terrible nightmare "Dark ages" and starts to move the IS toward a more enlightened policy with the Clan now knocking at the door with the time for resumption of the Invasion and Comstar with its Jihad leading mankind into the abyss." There is so much that can be written about that is far more exiting and continuing the wonderful work that was accomplished before the abortion known as Dark Ages.

I've heard this before, and it almost universally comes from a POV of general dismissal from people who haven't given the setting a chance.  Happened before with the Jihad era, too. 

Age of Destruction is polarizing, but only until the NEXT big event comes along and the oldies find something worse to whine about.  Turning Points: Liao showed me that Dark Age can be sweet, as good as the other periods.  -If- done properly.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: «Çߧ» Trooper_Thorn on April 22, 2011, 05:24:24 PM
There is an old Axiom, "give your customer what they want and you will go far." Most true Battletech fans at least the ones who have been here since the beginning, see "dark ages" as an alternative universe pile-o-crap and should be scrapped altogether. Jihad I can understand because of Com Star's hidden army from the original story line and their fanaticism. Catalyst would be best served doing the old,"Leader of Fed suns awakes after a terrible nightmare "Dark ages" and starts to move the IS toward a more enlightened policy with the Clan now knocking at the door with the time for resumption of the Invasion and Comstar with its Jihad leading mankind into the abyss." There is so much that can be written about that is far more exiting and continuing the wonderful work that was accomplished before the abortion known as Dark Ages.

I've heard this before, and it almost universally comes from a POV of general dismissal from people who haven't given the setting a chance.  Happened before with the Jihad era, too. 

Age of Destruction is polarizing, but only until the NEXT big event comes along and the oldies find something worse to whine about.  Turning Points: Liao showed me that Dark Age can be sweet, as good as the other periods.  -If- done properly.

-IF- done properly? that is a big if and it has not been, I have tried reading Dark ages and it sucked period. This would be solved if it was a case of "In the Mirrow Darkly" and the timeline restored. I know the kiddie crowd thinks dark ages is better than sliced bread with peanut butter on it however, it has turned off a great many fans of BT. That is why the old timers such as myself hold on with a fanatical zeal to the original time line. There is so much that was left undone and unfilled out with the original story line especially concerning the clans, and the title dark ages? that is basically what the I.S. was in due to Lostech and other areas such as medicine and simple agrotech. That is why the Datacores were so important to the storyline. To be the real Dark Ages all tech, medicine and agricultural tech would have to be lost consider living as the strict Amish using horses and plows and no intersteller travel, warships and mechanised armies that would truly be Dark Ages not the tripe that was put out.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Nebfer on April 25, 2011, 08:27:58 AM
-IF- done properly? that is a big if and it has not been, I have tried reading Dark ages and it sucked period. This would be solved if it was a case of "In the Mirrow Darkly" and the timeline restored. I know the kiddie crowd thinks dark ages is better than sliced bread with peanut butter on it however, it has turned off a great many fans of BT. That is why the old timers such as myself hold on with a fanatical zeal to the original time line. There is so much that was left undone and unfilled out with the original story line especially concerning the clans, and the title dark ages? that is basically what the I.S. was in due to Lostech and other areas such as medicine and simple agrotech. That is why the Datacores were so important to the storyline. To be the real Dark Ages all tech, medicine and agricultural tech would have to be lost consider living as the strict Amish using horses and plows and no intersteller travel, warships and mechanised armies that would truly be Dark Ages not the tripe that was put out.

I bet the majority of the hate you and many like you stems from the fact that when you first saw DA, BT was in cardiac arrest with no help in sight, and that the "new" story line did not make much scene from a player in the 3067 time frame. Word of Blake running amok in the IS and Clans? but how they only have "10 regiments"?, new game system with one of the first units shown was a industrial mech, "Mech disarmament", ROS being formed, the FWL being no more... and so on. So every thing they put out their after was in an automatic hate or distrust mode.

Basically it was a bad first impression for a good deal of the then current B-tech player base, which then turned off many players from that setting, even though much of the first impression was not as it seemed.

Certainly not every ones going to like it, their are players who practically only play in the 3025 era, who hate the clans and think they are the worse thing ever, and that the "recovered" tech ruined the balance of the game. Then theirs players who only play up until 3060ish and dislike the civil war time line. And still more who hate the Jihad timeline, and of coarse we have thoughs who are going to hate the "Dark age" time line.

Note I never played DA nor read the books, Ok I read one (#13 The Scorpions Jar, figures the first B-tech novel I read is the one where Victor bites it), I came in with MW2 mercs though.

So stop complaining, the DA time line is canon, now when BT gets to that time frame, they might be able to sort a few things out, perhaps even change a few things. You do not have to play in that era, but for goodness sake do got go shouting "its not canon, it's an alternate universe", because it is NOT either one of thoughs.

Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: «Çߧ» Trooper_Thorn on April 25, 2011, 01:29:50 PM
"Nebfer" So stop complaining, the DA time line is canon, now when BT gets to that time frame, they might be able to sort a few things out, perhaps even change a few things. You do not have to play in that era, but for goodness sake do got go shouting "its not canon, it's an alternate universe", because it is NOT either one of thoughs.

Yea? Well there are a lot of us due to the zipper heads that created DA, that have basically been kicked to the curb because of the drug induced F-up called "Dark Ages." We are the ones that have been keeping this game alive during Evercrack and Sims #951 the epic of self flagellation and as Grem has put it, "MW/BT is now our game and WE will make of it what we will." The jerk wagons that abandoned their player base can go take a flying leap for all we care. The trash that has been dumped upon us will not be accepted no matter what people like you wish, and if there ever is a new BT/MW game from Jordan Weizmann @ Smith and Tinker, which I am beginning to highly doubt; it had better be the best thing to hit distribution with the reboot since Crescent Hawks.

The gaming production world abandoned us not the other way around so WE the BT/MW community have taken it upon ourselves to keep this alive with people like MekTek  doing Mech Paks with MW4 and Wandering Samurai doing MWLL Mod out of Crysis. Both do not have any of the DA BS in them. Myself personally because I am on a limited income, I do not have to spend my money or support people or companies that tell their dedicated player base, "FU we don't care what you think we are going to stuff this tripe down your throat and you had better damn well genuflect toward us. That is the same mentality GM had toward the car buying public, they even had Zone managers tell dealers "WE will make and they will buy it!" even after asking the dealers what did the buying public say they wanted in their cars; that is why GM is now Obama motors. Currently all S&T cares about  their stupid Hanover game for kiddies and now all their site talks about is the 2011 coming mobile ap with the Marvel universe. Again the MW/BT player base is kicked to the curb, well F them we do not need them or their input and I now hope Harmony Gold sues them into oblivion! As for the BT/MWDA book writers and their table top crap they can stuff it, I DO NOT have to spend my limited income on their crap either and I hope they bite the dust also and we who are the core base for MW/BT will take this into our own hands and make of it what we will!

Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: ~SJ~KorbinWimmer on April 25, 2011, 02:44:14 PM
Not to take this thing completely OT, but I heard Mektek is going to have to close down their servers in a month or two if they don't get a heap of cash.
______________________________________________________

I think it's this type of anti-Dark Age, OG Battletech rules, elitism so to speak that has really killed any hopes of really reviving the original storyline.  It gives developers very little leeway.   Societies tastes do change over time.  It seems to me quite obvious that there is no financial motivation for any firm to try and take on Mechwarrior/Battletech at least to the depth that many players want it.

I do like the original story better, but you can't fault Wizkids for attempting to resurrect the game.  At least they had the balls to attempt to keep MW/BT somewhat relevant to the modern gamer.  They did so in what they thought would be the best way possible, and they attempted to give it a storyline that many people would be able to jump into without needing to spend 6 months catching up on the political intrigue of the OG universe.

You can trash them as much as you want, but the fact remains that without them Battletech / Mechwarrior has essentially been untouched and undiscovered by gamers  for nearly 10 years now.   

Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: =KoS= Saber15 on April 25, 2011, 04:14:45 PM
MW:DA is fine. I see nothing wrong with it, though I personally think most of the original mech designs for DA looked dumb as hell, and the writing was kinda screwy. Read the first DA novel, it was decent. I haven't played DA yet, since AFAIK there isn't a online version like BT's MegaMek, but it looks like it could be fun. BT tends to turn into a giant clusterfapp once you've got more than a lance of units, with turns taking several minutes (and this is on MegaMek where it does all the math for you). I prefer BT's writing and designs over DA's writing and designs.

Keep in mind that I prefer 3025 and dislike the clan invasion  ::)
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: «Çߧ» Trooper_Thorn on April 25, 2011, 07:02:21 PM
Not to take this thing completely OT, but I heard Mektek is going to have to close down their servers in a month or two if they don't get a heap of cash.
______________________________________________________

I think it's this type of anti-Dark Age, OG Battletech rules, elitism so to speak that has really killed any hopes of really reviving the original storyline.  It gives developers very little leeway.   Societies tastes do change over time.  It seems to me quite obvious that there is no financial motivation for any firm to try and take on Mechwarrior/Battletech at least to the depth that many players want it.

I do like the original story better, but you can't fault Wizkids for attempting to resurrect the game.  At least they had the balls to attempt to keep MW/BT somewhat relevant to the modern gamer.  They did so in what they thought would be the best way possible, and they attempted to give it a storyline that many people would be able to jump into without needing to spend 6 months catching up on the political intrigue of the OG universe.

You can trash them as much as you want, but the fact remains that without them Battletech / Mechwarrior has essentially been untouched and undiscovered by gamers  for nearly 10 years now.   

Q: Is that the communities fault? A: Hell no, The fault is with MS after they trashed MW and then let the property sit on the shelf and rot. Now as for this elitism argument it is BS, I look at it from the point of view as better writing, more in-depth universe and a grand story line that has yet to be fulfilled. The reviving of the original storyline is not all that difficult. As for relevancy to the more modern gamer, what is the problem have they been so dumbed down as to not to be able in their stupidity as to understand the full breath and scope of the original story line or is it a 3.5 second attention span theater that with out simplistic flashy bangy things they would stumble off drooling to their next bout of Final Fantasy # 965. No, I think too many game production people underestimate the gaming public and I am quite sure that the original story line could be reintroduced to the new generation and they would find it as interesting as "Us so-called elitist old timers" have and still do.

I equated this mentality to GM which is something I have over 40 years experience with since my family worked as well as myself in the auto business since 1962 when my father broke into the business selling Chevrolet in Miami Fla. GM reached the point where they no longer listened to their customer base and what they wanted in a car but took the attitude we will build it and they will buy it. How did that work out for GM? A lot of long time customers went "Japanese" or to other manufacturers that tried to cater to the customers wants and needs. So now GM is Barrack Hussein Obama motors and is still bleeding cash like a slaughtered pig. There is a lot of former GM dealers out there who stuck with GM and now have lost it all. Is this what it is going to take to reset the gaming industry particularly BT/MW? As for Mek Tek I hate to see them dieing but MWLL is a far better product even if it is a mod.

Next to MWLL MekTek 3.1 for MW4 series looks too cartoonish and the third person view community has taken over, more and more "Old timers" are coming here when they find out about it, you can only take leg and thumper fest, and lousy graphics compared to MWLL so long. We dropped the other night in 3.1 testing and the game video and weapons fire and lack of combined arms was glaringly apparent and as a team we have decided to drop 3.1 for league play. If Mek Tek wants to survive it had better jump on this bandwagon since this will with more and more certainty become the only game in town as it were. If MW reboot ever becomes a reality the more modern gamers as you put it are going to have to learn the old story line and secondly S&T with Piranha are going to have to make their game as in depth and visually exiting as the promo trailer or it will flop next to MWLL.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Kelmola on April 25, 2011, 08:39:18 PM
Hey, it could be worse. Like, the introduction to BT universe in the boxset could be updated to "current" times (3085), but it isn't, instead it's still in late 3067 like it has been for the last ten years. Although, instead of the goodwill of the developers, there's probably a much more prosaic reason for this - there's still not a single full-length source book (written from "omniscient" perspective instead of the in-universe stuff we got now) available that would actually update the universe to post-Jihad times, so an abbreviated version could not exist either...

Also, as for creating an "entry point", it was already there, it was the 3025 era (which is what the rules of the BT boxset still put you in). Relatively static universe, few factions but with strong identities each, centuries of technological decay have made 'Mechs almost priceless, all the IndustrialMechs, AgroMechs and ForestryMechs would have fit nicely there. Then you could have started introducing "booster packs" as a result of the discovery of Helm memory core/Clantech, new factions (Periphery, mercenaries, Com Guards, FRR, first wave of invading Clans, second wave of invading Clans, Home Clans, WoB), etc. gradually without alienating the existing fan base.

Yes, the seeds of Jihad were sown early on what with the then-religious ComStar fervently believing in the soon-approaching End Times (and actively working to hasten them by killing scientists and provoking wars), but back then it was certainly not about the descendants of the Not-Named Clan throwing a temper tantrum when they couldn't get the Successor States to back up their plan of wiping out the Clan homeworlds with their stockpiles of WMD's.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Nebfer on April 29, 2011, 08:28:33 PM
"Nebfer" So stop complaining, the DA time line is canon, now when BT gets to that time frame, they might be able to sort a few things out, perhaps even change a few things. You do not have to play in that era, but for goodness sake do got go shouting "its not canon, it's an alternate universe", because it is NOT either one of thoughs.

Yea? Well there are a lot of us due to the zipper heads that created DA, that have basically been kicked to the curb because of the drug induced F-up called "Dark Ages." We are the ones that have been keeping this game alive during Evercrack and Sims #951 the epic of self flagellation and as Grem has put it, "MW/BT is now our game and WE will make of it what we will." The jerk wagons that abandoned their player base can go take a flying leap for all we care. The trash that has been dumped upon us will not be accepted no matter what people like you wish, and if there ever is a new BT/MW game from Jordan Weizmann @ Smith and Tinker, which I am beginning to highly doubt; it had better be the best thing to hit distribution with the reboot since Crescent Hawks.

The gaming production world abandoned us not the other way around so WE the BT/MW community have taken it upon ourselves to keep this alive with people like MekTek  doing Mech Paks with MW4 and Wandering Samurai doing MWLL Mod out of Crysis. Both do not have any of the DA BS in them. Myself personally because I am on a limited income, I do not have to spend my money or support people or companies that tell their dedicated player base, "FU we don't care what you think we are going to stuff this tripe down your throat and you had better damn well genuflect toward us. That is the same mentality GM had toward the car buying public, they even had Zone managers tell dealers "WE will make and they will buy it!" even after asking the dealers what did the buying public say they wanted in their cars; that is why GM is now Obama motors. Currently all S&T cares about  their stupid Hanover game for kiddies and now all their site talks about is the 2011 coming mobile ap with the Marvel universe. Again the MW/BT player base is kicked to the curb, well F them we do not need them or their input and I now hope Harmony Gold sues them into oblivion! As for the BT/MWDA book writers and their table top crap they can stuff it, I DO NOT have to spend my limited income on their crap either and I hope they bite the dust also and we who are the core base for MW/BT will take this into our own hands and make of it what we will!

Is this more of a computer game thing? As that's what it sounds like? First off Microsoft owns that area of the franchise. So blame Microsoft, not the DA guys, Heck they never made a Dark age PC era game.

You do relies that Battletech is not a computer game, it dose not and never will revolve around the computer game series. Heck the books your hate are more canonical then your games.

So if your the real battletech then why are you not making new battletech products, advancing the storyline, advancing the game(s)?

Because your are not any of thoughs, Fanpro/Catalyst are, and they are advancing the regular battletech series in both products, story wise and game wise. They even created products to suit players who prefer other eras, they made products for the war of 3039, the founding of the Clans, the Clan invasion era, as well as advancing the regular timeline to the late 3070s.

So how have they kicked you to the curb? They can not do a PC game as they do not hold the licenses to do so, but they do hold a licenses to work on the real core of the battletech universe (and remember with out the "table top" game they never would of been a mechwarrior PC game).
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Gremlich on May 02, 2011, 01:17:30 AM
DA timeline is now canon?

Horseshit.

Well, maybe only to those that paid out cash to buy the related products. I am not among them.

DA is an alternate timeline as far as I'm concerned. Like Star Trek Enterprise.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Kalon on May 02, 2011, 04:48:38 AM
@ «Çߧ» Trooper_Thorn I could not agree more sir! Well said! When I played MW4: Vengeance I was expecting MW3+. The graphics, the controls all changed. I went to the Black Knight expansion pack & finally Mercenaries. As you rightfully said it just looks too cartoonish. The 1st time I saw the trailer for the MWLL mod I was blown away. This is what gets me angry. This is not the multi million dollar corporation of Microsoft, this is regular people who did not even make a game, they made a MOD for another game that has absolutely NOTHING to do with Battletech/Mechwarrior that looks BETTER & incorporates more into it than the actual creators. This is like KOTOR II: The Sith Lords. They rushed the game to get it out for the Christmas shopping period & the game was unfinished. They were so lazy they left the stuff they were going to put in on the actual discs. It was regular players & lovers of the franchise that took time out of their busy schedules restoring content for all to enjoy. To all the MWLL staff, THANK YOU! You are appreciated.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Taemien on May 02, 2011, 02:21:22 PM
@ «Çߧ» Trooper_Thorn I could not agree more sir! Well said! When I played MW4: Vengeance I was expecting MW3+. The graphics, the controls all changed. I went to the Black Knight expansion pack & finally Mercenaries. As you rightfully said it just looks too cartoonish. The 1st time I saw the trailer for the MWLL mod I was blown away. This is what gets me angry. This is not the multi million dollar corporation of Microsoft, this is regular people who did not even make a game, they made a MOD for another game that has absolutely NOTHING to do with Battletech/Mechwarrior that looks BETTER & incorporates more into it than the actual creators. This is like KOTOR II: The Sith Lords. They rushed the game to get it out for the Christmas shopping period & the game was unfinished. They were so lazy they left the stuff they were going to put in on the actual discs. It was regular players & lovers of the franchise that took time out of their busy schedules restoring content for all to enjoy. To all the MWLL staff, THANK YOU! You are appreciated.

Kinda derailing a thread here a little, but this sort of needs to be said.

This is why gamers should make games and not regular executives. Say what you will about Blizzard, but every game they have made has done very well and has felt complete right out of the box. Now play any game made by EA in comparison, or even Bethesda.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Ghiest on May 02, 2011, 09:16:19 PM
DA timeline is now canon?

Horseshit.

Well, maybe only to those that paid out cash to buy the related products. I am not among them.

DA is an alternate timeline as far as I'm concerned. Like Star Trek Enterprise.

I feel like that about the clan invasion thing, not because of what it did to the story (which I actually do like) but what it did to the universe/battletech as a balanced more-complex-chess game

In terms of game play (as in board/RPG game not games themselves which is a whole different matter) it completely ruined the whole thing.  Any thing they tried onwards from there was just compounding their error.  Sure I know they have to move on and create new stuff to sell to people but to ruin a perfectly balanced game for the profit exceeds their stupidity.

As for the whole dark age thing, it's a write off imo.  Anything that polarizes you player base so much that a vast majority of fans completely ignore it, is a major major mistake on their part.  Warships, nukes and biological weapons?  Meh, sorry but it's all bullshit
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Conjure on February 11, 2012, 04:34:33 AM
He is a traditional Smoke Jaguar, he does not waste time. ;)  What he is meaning is that knowing someone who worked at FASA at the time the clans were being written out and people had huge interest at this time so a lot was written out.  There is a lot that may never have been published at game wise it was more irrelivent to publishing, and was left out.  Plus having people confirm his thoughts on the SJ just being made the bad guy to further the plot...

No, he just gets exteriminated by the IS .  ; )

I don't think that's really valid either.  For example, if something -were- left out?

First off the Jaguar's are not dead, they are alive and I can say no more than thus...it is in the books you just have to find it.

Second Thanks Coffin nail for your support, Jags normally only have themselves to rely on.

And to respond to the comment that I quoted of your last post ChuggyG, they were not "left out" they did not have the time or money to impliment them properly and thus they were "bought out" more than anything else, and when another company picked up the sotry line they looked at the notes and said...nahhhh we wanna do it like this....completely throwing Babcock's story out the window


I have to agree with you about  the writing behind "Operation Bulldog" and Smoke Jaguars demise. A typical example of the tongue and cheek style you see in a number of the BTU novels.  Twilight of the Clans was with out character depth, insight into real human nature, and frankly unimaginative.  Very frustrating for a long time fan of the original FASA games and universe.  There is this amazing wealth of resource to draw from and I hope to see future authors take advantage.  The complexities of clan society and the clash of Terran influenced house cultures leaves for great story potential. Instead we get a bull* good vs evil axiom that leads us to the end of the invasions. Really unexciting finish.

More to my point and the reason I'm reviving this thread after seeing some argument over the novels and canon.  I have read about all the canon you can and there are a ton of loopholes for Smoke Jaguar to come back. In fact I know an author that might be interested in writing novel with a Jag cameo ;)  The story would encompass the relationship between clans, clan life and a really human look into how this effects their role in the universe. The outline of his story has a lot of fun and intriguing surprises. It's just a friend/avid fan writing for the fun of it and for our group of friends. He does have thoughts of a BTU revival in the science fiction world. No dialogue with Battle corps so far has been made yet but who knows what could happen. Like i said he is just having some fun of his with it on his own. You guys that are disillusioned with the storyline may see this as something to look forward to. I know I am hoping for it!
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Odins Reaver on March 02, 2012, 08:29:22 AM
I know I'm a year late (yeah what can I say I was really really busy this time last year), but I'd like to point out that the Bears, Wolves and Falcons would look rather similar as they absorbed mostly Russian, German, and Scandinavian bloodnames.

As for the whole DA thing, yeah the whole thing is meh to me. I really did try and like it, I tried  to play it, it didn't feel very Battletech to me.

As for the whole Microsoft thing, well MW/BT isn't the only franchise that they put on hold, I still want my third Lancer game. I remember back in NBT4/Mercs/HC I would play Freelancer with the Fire Mandrills and a few Dimond Sharks and Hells Horses. That was a lot of fun after drops. (Note: this isn't my old Callsign BTW).
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Ressk [CSF] on March 02, 2012, 03:40:21 PM
necro...

CSF is better than all of y'all  ;D

EDIT: i suppose if you two up there necroed this i may as well contribute to the thread instead of just being dumb.

Ive read Jade Phoenix, and some Dark Age stuff, only really got an insight into clan workings on Sarna or with Jade Phoenix. The caste system is interesting... but man those jade falcons hate people  ;D

sure glad i picked CSF to resurrect, get all nice and cosy with the merchant caste... however unfortunately there are not any books on my clan that ive ever seen, plus with the re-naming happening well beyond 3065...
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Clan Nova Cat ^o.o^ on March 26, 2012, 01:40:42 AM
I have to say that my main problem with MekTek is that the whole ports issue with the game does not allow me to play online though the single player is good. Graphically it does look cartoony and play 3rd personey though.  :-\

oh wait... your talking about DA... loved DA but nevermind...
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: =CJW=YalK on March 26, 2012, 04:47:34 AM
necro...

CSF is better than all of y'all  ;D

EDIT: i suppose if you two up there necroed this i may as well contribute to the thread instead of just being dumb.

Ive read Jade Phoenix, and some Dark Age stuff, only really got an insight into clan workings on Sarna or with Jade Phoenix. The caste system is interesting... but man those jade falcons hate people  ;D

sure glad i picked CSF to resurrect, get all nice and cosy with the merchant caste... however unfortunately there are not any books on my clan that ive ever seen, plus with the re-naming happening well beyond 3065...

I am a Falcon and I hate people, so I guess your correct
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Bill on March 26, 2012, 05:10:31 AM
CSF can eat a dick, we're the best.

We're better than those supposed renegade Jaguars, we're so true kvlt that we're only supposed to have existed for a fortnight.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Xarg Talasko on March 26, 2012, 05:40:31 AM
How long until you find a dirty dildo in Bane's dresser?
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Bill on March 26, 2012, 05:41:42 AM
Well considering it's moulded from my mighty mound he should be proud!
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Xarg Talasko on March 26, 2012, 06:07:19 AM
Not sure if missed Euronymous reference, or just didn't care..
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Bill on March 26, 2012, 06:09:42 AM
The latter....

Did make me lol though, which I needed. I just watched two mexicans get their heads cut off/throats slashed with a chainsaw.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Xarg Talasko on March 26, 2012, 06:12:22 AM
Did you update your Shogun2 yet?
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Bill on March 26, 2012, 06:16:17 AM
Yeah dude, just fully bombed that I can't afford Rise....
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Xarg Talasko on March 26, 2012, 06:55:12 AM
It was on special before it released, I'm waiting for the midyear summer camp specials, hopefully it goes down a few dollars.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Bill on March 26, 2012, 06:58:08 AM
I'll get it, but I'm going to buy a load of valium first off.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Ressk [CSF] on March 26, 2012, 08:48:03 AM
CSF can eat a dick, we're the best.

We're better than those supposed renegade Jaguars, we're so true kvlt that we're only supposed to have existed for a fortnight.

thems fighting words bill  ;D

besides, CSF be DA represent!
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: =CJW=YalK on March 27, 2012, 02:18:43 AM










































Wut?
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Ressk [CSF] on March 27, 2012, 02:22:51 AM
MWLL CSF is representative of the clan as reformed post 3100 in the timeline. so well into the dork age. that clarify things?
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Bill on March 27, 2012, 02:24:31 AM
Not at all.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Ressk [CSF] on March 27, 2012, 02:26:45 AM
Not at all.

it means we are better in the end and technically from the future according to the setting of the game.

CSF4LYFE
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Bill on March 27, 2012, 02:27:50 AM
Wait you're from 6200 or something.

What, what, what?
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Ressk [CSF] on March 27, 2012, 02:29:34 AM
Wait you're from 6200 or something.

What, what, what?

3100. this game are 3065 or sommat. 35 years in the future yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: =CJW=YalK on March 27, 2012, 02:59:40 AM
Is CSF in the invasion corridor? Do you hold terra 35 years in the future?

Fail clan is fail

 8)
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Ressk [CSF] on March 27, 2012, 03:08:50 AM
Is CSF in the invasion corridor? Do you hold terra 35 years in the future?

Fail clan is fail

 8)

Diamond Shark was. CSF is just a new name for Diamond Shark. We fought at tukayyid, and lost just as bad as the rest of you. We do not hold terra, we just trade with everyone! WIN!
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Bill on March 27, 2012, 03:29:17 AM
trade

lol
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Ressk [CSF] on March 27, 2012, 03:32:12 AM
trade

lol

at least CSF is a free clan! no jade in our name! lol
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Bill on March 27, 2012, 03:36:35 AM
Clan Jewish Wives has no idea what you're talking about.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: (TLL) Heretic on March 27, 2012, 11:30:48 AM
*grabs popcorn*

Go on......

<---loves it when the tubbies fight over which ones are sillier, the Falcons pet-Wolves vs the AssHat Sharks Celebrity Deathmatch...oh yeah!
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Bill on March 27, 2012, 01:19:34 PM
I'm not actually fighting anyone Hairytits, I'm being me.

This is pretty much what I do.

Also you're pretty much wearing the tags of the most hilarious unit that ever existed, so there's that.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: (TLL) Heretic on March 27, 2012, 02:42:29 PM
I'm not actually fighting anyone Hairytits, I'm being me.

This is pretty much what I do.

Also you're pretty much wearing the tags of the most hilarious unit that ever existed, so there's that.

Oh, it seems I hit a nerve there....even though my comment was related to Ressks "free clan" jibe....(can you spell narcissism Bill? :o ;D)

Good doggie, sit doggie, now roll over for your Falcon masters..there's a good little wolfie...have a biscuit   :P

Baiting Clanners......such fun.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Bill on March 27, 2012, 02:47:28 PM
Again dude, literally just being me.

I literally don't care about the lore at all, it's a means to an end to me.

And sure, I'll have a biscuit. Decent one's though, I'm not into transfats and refined sugars/flours.

I'd also add that my narcissism is pretty obvious, I wouldn't even attempt to hide it, I mean it's only out grossed by my self loathing.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: (TLL) Heretic on March 27, 2012, 04:47:47 PM
Again dude, literally just being me.

I literally don't care about the lore at all, it's a means to an end to me.

And sure, I'll have a biscuit. Decent one's though, I'm not into transfats and refined sugars/flours.

I'd also add that my narcissism is pretty obvious, I wouldn't even attempt to hide it, I mean it's only out grossed by my self loathing.

And yet you have joined a Clan, and not just any clan, but perhaps one of the most nerdy of all, how did you put it when you were stretching your nerd-muscle:
"We're better than those supposed renegade Jaguars, we're so true kvlt that we're only supposed to have existed for a fortnight."
Not the words of a Random pubber who's just in it for the assplosions.

And there's your 1700 posts on these forums....no one who cares so little can post so much....most random pubbers don't even post on the forums, let alone 1700 posts plus the many hundred more in Toast that don't get counted.

Hate to do this to you mate, but you are a Battletech nerd.....you're sitting in a pond covered in feathers shouting "Quack" at everyone that will listen Ducky ;)
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: SJ SaKhan Wolf on March 27, 2012, 04:51:49 PM
If you two would like to continue your "disagreement" do so in PMs. Let's get the thread back on topic before it turns any further downhill.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Bill on March 27, 2012, 05:00:19 PM
Nooooooo, I like Battletech, never said otherwise.

In regard to CJW, I really don't think you've got a good cross section of us. Firstly I had no idea what the backstory was when I joined, I do now because I like Sci Fi, even bad Sci Fi like Battletech (and it's pretty ripe)

But that CJW and irl CJW are apples an oranges. It's basically a social thing for me, I get to play games with them and get the benefits of semi organised play in this one.

Also your inability to see the caricature nature of my posts is your problem not mine ya big silly.

As for my post count, I'm pretty much on the board 24/7. I don't work as I'm a full time carer, I live in a small town with very little to do and to be honest I'd actually say the board is far more interesting that the mod or the lore that's backing it. It's at least more dynamic anyway.

And to finalise, I literally only post here for my own amusement, I don't need the gratification of the reply or anything so the whole duck metaphor doesn't really apply. Essentially what I am doing here is stroking my own ego whilst I continually stream beligerence, non sequiturs and very, very rarely something actually pertaining to BT or the mod.

I know my motivations, I've not got anything to hide in being here. So please kindly save your off canter observations for the people that need them.

Also no thanks flow, I'm fine, pretty much all I had to say on the matter. Except the meatballs.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: (TLL) Heretic on March 27, 2012, 05:08:45 PM
Nooooooo, I like Battletech, never said otherwise.

In regard to CJW, I really don't think you've got a good cross section of us. Firstly I had no idea what the backstory was when I joined, I do now because I like Sci Fi, even bad Sci Fi like Battletech (and it's pretty ripe)

But that CJW and irl CJW are apples an oranges. It's basically a social thing for me, I get to play games with them and get the benefits of semi organised play in this one.

Also your inability to see the caricature nature of my posts is your problem not mine ya big silly.

As for my post count, I'm pretty much on the board 24/7. I don't work as I'm a full time carer, I live in a small town with very little to do and to be honest I'd actually say the board is far more interesting that the mod or the lore that's backing it. It's at least more dynamic anyway.

And to finalise, I literally only post here for my own amusement, I don't need the gratification of the reply or anything so the whole duck metaphor doesn't really apply. Essentially what I am doing here is stroking my own ego whilst I continually stream beligerence, non sequiturs and very, very rarely something actually pertaining to BT or the mod.

I know my motivations, I've not got anything to hide in being here. So please kindly save your off canter observations for the people that need them.

Also no thanks flow, I'm fine, pretty much all I had to say on the matter. Except the meatballs.

Careful Bill he might use the Ban-hammer for us having a gentle ribald conversation in a forum Section that's as far away from any relevance to the mod as Toast is.

Must be a slow day.


On Topic:

Clan Society is fascistic and evil, they sleep with their sisters and kill their brothers for the glory of a long dead egomaniac wannabe Star Lord.
/thread.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: SJ SaKhan Wolf on March 27, 2012, 05:14:08 PM
On Topic:

Clan Society is fascistic and evil, they sleep with their sisters and kill their brothers for the glory of a long dead egomaniac wannabe Star Lord.
/thread.

Much better! You do have a point on the sister thing... Never thought about that angle...
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Ressk [CSF] on March 27, 2012, 05:15:27 PM
*grabs popcorn*

Go on......

<---loves it when the tubbies fight over which ones are sillier, the Falcons pet-Wolves vs the AssHat Sharks Celebrity Deathmatch...oh yeah!

hahahahahah oh lol that sums it up nicely.

I created the MWLL CSF so i could have some bro's to chum with, and so I could get a taste of what its like to lead a clan. the fiction CSF i know, bits and pieces about, but nothing too serious outside of sarna.net

Im mostly on this forum to outpost Bill someday  :P, and because this game rocks the socks.

and now back to you're previously scheduled programming, now that im awake again.

CSF are what id like to imagine as a clan which is less clan, what with a trader caste second in command, and lots of contact with the IS. also, not having an actual "home planet", instead just living in the jumpships always sounds cool. Comparing CSF to another clan is kindof difficult, as really the only simillarities is some of the social structure, and even then not much. Zellbrigen in my clan in fiction is probably pretty dusty and unused.

and about the sister thing, it takes into question how much a test tube can make you a sister/brother.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Bill on March 27, 2012, 05:25:13 PM
You might outpost me in volume, but never in calibre.

OT, depends on the source material doesn't it bruv.

But again it's just cultural stuff innit.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Xarg Talasko on March 27, 2012, 06:35:09 PM
They may sleep with their "sisters", but since children aren't produced, which is the taboo of inbreeding due to genetic defects becoming pronounced over a period of time, there's really nothing wrong with it, outside of outdated religious and social norms.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Leggat on March 27, 2012, 07:57:19 PM
there's really nothing wrong with it,
Sounds like someone has a cute sister. . .    :P

Sorry, Xarg, couldn't help that one.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Deathbane on March 28, 2012, 03:20:59 AM
there's really nothing wrong with it,
Sounds like someone has a cute sister. . .    :P

Sorry, Xarg, couldn't help that one.

His mother is better.

Also Clan Sea Fox are second best derp clan. In lore and in this mod.  :D

The fact that they gave us the Madcat Mk2 in the lore is delicious.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Xarg Talasko on March 28, 2012, 05:38:43 AM
If I had a cute sister do you think I'd be here nerding it up with you chaps?
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Ressk [CSF] on March 28, 2012, 05:47:25 AM
there's really nothing wrong with it,
Sounds like someone has a cute sister. . .    :P

Sorry, Xarg, couldn't help that one.

His mother is better.

Also Clan Sea Fox are second best derp clan. In lore and in this mod.  :D

The fact that they gave us the Madcat Mk2 in the lore is delicious.

nothing better than 90 tonnes of pure unadulterated jump jetting assault mech.

the Madcat Mk3+ i will not speak of again. or the other one.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Xarg Talasko on March 28, 2012, 06:31:35 AM
You'd better be talking about the mk2 there buddy  :-*
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Cik on March 28, 2012, 08:41:27 AM
there's really nothing wrong with it,
Sounds like someone has a cute sister. . .    :P

Sorry, Xarg, couldn't help that one.

His mother is better.

Also Clan Sea Fox are second best derp clan. In lore and in this mod.  :D

The fact that they gave us the Madcat Mk2 in the lore is delicious.

nothing better than 90 tonnes of pure unadulterated jump jetting assault mech.

the Madcat Mk3+ i will not speak of again. or the other one.

not only is it a knockoff, but it's not terribly great either. AND it was sold to the sphere. AND it's called the mad cat. honestly, if i were clan wolf, i'd have issued a call for abjuration just based on that. sheesh.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Ressk [CSF] on March 28, 2012, 08:43:39 AM
there's really nothing wrong with it,
Sounds like someone has a cute sister. . .    :P

Sorry, Xarg, couldn't help that one.

His mother is better.

Also Clan Sea Fox are second best derp clan. In lore and in this mod.  :D

The fact that they gave us the Madcat Mk2 in the lore is delicious.

nothing better than 90 tonnes of pure unadulterated jump jetting assault mech.

the Madcat Mk3+ i will not speak of again. or the other one.

not only is it a knockoff, but it's not terribly great either. AND it was sold to the sphere. AND it's called the mad cat. honestly, if i were clan wolf, i'd have issued a call for abjuration just based on that. sheesh.


Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh


NEVER SPEAK OF IT AGAIN
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Cik on March 28, 2012, 08:46:59 AM
there's really nothing wrong with it,
Sounds like someone has a cute sister. . .    :P

Sorry, Xarg, couldn't help that one.

His mother is better.

Also Clan Sea Fox are second best derp clan. In lore and in this mod.  :D

The fact that they gave us the Madcat Mk2 in the lore is delicious.

nothing better than 90 tonnes of pure unadulterated jump jetting assault mech.

the Madcat Mk3+ i will not speak of again. or the other one.

not only is it a knockoff, but it's not terribly great either. AND it was sold to the sphere. AND it's called the mad cat. honestly, if i were clan wolf, i'd have issued a call for abjuration just based on that. sheesh.


Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh


NEVER SPEAK OF IT AGAIN

i meant the mkii, sea fox dezgra :P
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Terragent on March 28, 2012, 10:04:35 AM
Vlad was too busy nailing Katherine to bother paying attention to stuff like that.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Kelmola on March 28, 2012, 04:01:23 PM
Vlad was too busy nailing Katherine to bother paying attention to stuff like that.
While he was doing that, at least Katherine was thinking of her brother like a proper Clanner should. :P

And so we ended up with Alaric, and his delusional idea to unite Clan Wolf and House Steiner, leaving the Jade Falcons as the only true Crusader Clan as of end of Dark Age.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Terragent on March 28, 2012, 04:24:06 PM
I dunno, Malvina Hazen's antics were seriously lame. As much as I like the Falcons, DA was not kind to them.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Ressk [CSF] on March 28, 2012, 04:31:37 PM

i meant the mkii, sea fox dezgra :P

ah well in that case its a fine mech and dont you go making fun of it.

edit: just noticed Cik called me dezgra!

YOU SHALL PAY

OT: clan insults are confuzing. i should go read up some good ones so i can bandy them about while online, as the IS seems to have a limitless amount to throw at us...
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Xarg Talasko on April 18, 2012, 12:58:39 PM
Call him a freebirth.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: =CJW=YalK on April 19, 2012, 01:54:12 AM
Surat (a cute, monkey-like mammal native to the Clan Homeworlds that the lower Castes keep as pets.)

Stravag (Freebirth)

"Die, bed wetting Surat!!"

Popular amongst the CJW "your such a double Freebirth ..... "

Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Arashi_Calunata on September 16, 2013, 11:05:18 PM
Of course my first non-pub post is this. Might as well stop complaining and post.

Anyways, I find Clan culture to be rather streamlined, and similar to the setup of Feudal-Era Japan. Solving disputes over set battles is a decent way of settling arguments between the subfactions, and design sharing is both common and rare at the same time. It's impressive, in my mind. However, they are (Or seem to be), all things considered, more than a little bit... "Challenged" when it comes to accepting the premise the Inner Sphere reprisents. Granted, tech wise (And some may argue culture wise), the Inner Sphere was/is years behind the Clans. I'm still confused as to why the reaction to this is to burn all the Freebirth Worlds, simply because I've primarily invested in only the Mech-based lore of the series, but the answer should make more sense.

Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Bill on September 16, 2013, 11:56:04 PM
However, they are (Or seem to be), all things considered, more than a little bit... "Challenged" when it comes to accepting the premise the Inner Sphere reprisents

Not totally sure what you mean here, do you mean in terms recognising the IS as different factions?
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: SquareSphere on September 17, 2013, 05:29:06 PM
For the most part the Clans didn't want to burn free birth worlds, they want to absorb them and show them the way of the clans. Only the SJ's burned a world and that was due to vast resistance of the populous.

If you're talking about the Jihad that was due to Blakist not the Clans.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: SJ SaKhan Wolf on September 17, 2013, 06:06:42 PM
Of course my first non-pub post is this. Might as well stop complaining and post.

Anyways, I find Clan culture to be rather streamlined, and similar to the setup of Feudal-Era Japan. Solving disputes over set battles is a decent way of settling arguments between the subfactions, and design sharing is both common and rare at the same time. It's impressive, in my mind. However, they are (Or seem to be), all things considered, more than a little bit... "Challenged" when it comes to accepting the premise the Inner Sphere reprisents. Granted, tech wise (And some may argue culture wise), the Inner Sphere was/is years behind the Clans. I'm still confused as to why the reaction to this is to burn all the Freebirth Worlds, simply because I've primarily invested in only the Mech-based lore of the series, but the answer should make more sense.

The Crusader clans didn't want to burn the IS, they wanted to conquer it. Conquered worlds were usually treated quite well by the Clans.

The Warden clans didn't agree with the war machine methods of the Crusaders.

The SJs as Square mentioned were the only clan to 'burn' a planet and that was Turtle Bay, whose populace really didn't like clan rule and decided to make things rough on the SJs. The SJs in turn used Turtle Bay as an example. This was instantly seen as a very poor decision and led to SJ being virtually wiped out.

Clans are a bit "challenged' when it comes to the IS culture. They have after been taught their whole lives that the IS is bad at life and requires clan guidance. The clans have a very much US Government thought. They feel the need to rule Terra and the entire IS to basically protect the IS from itself.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Xarg Talasko on September 18, 2013, 12:19:38 AM
The Clans initially believed that the Inner Sphere had destroyed itself back to the Stone Age (something that ComStar wishes the Successor States would do (and tries to help them along with), so they could play Jesus and come save everyone from themselves). The Wolf's Dragoons mercenaries were sent to the Sphere in the early 3000's to gather intelligence on the state of the Inner Sphere. The intel they sent back indicated that the Sphere, while technologically regressed quite severely, was actually rather stable and not in fact, on the verge of total collapse.

The Clan intelligence on the Sphere cuts off rather suddenly somewhere around the 3020-3030's by order of then Khan Kherlin Ward, something that will make life difficult for Natasha Kerensky in the 50's when she answers the call to return to Strana Mechty following the death of the IlKhan.

With all that in mind, at this point in time the Clans have been isolated from the Sphere for nearly 300 years, and the culture Nicholas Kerensky devised has total hold on how the Clans operate, and as we've seen so many time in real world history, anyone who doesn't act the way you act is clearly a barbarian who must be shown the light of "true" civilisation  ::). While there are some Sphere residents who earn the respect of the Clans (Phelan Kell, Kai Allard-Liao, Victor Steiner-Davion and a few lesser known characters), the majority of the Sphere are still regarded as barbarians, though processes that are constantly reinforced by the Sphere's "dishonourable conduct" in battle, in the negotiation of battle, and how the Houses conduct themselves in general.

Hopefully that answers your question.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Defender on September 18, 2013, 02:27:47 AM
I'd also add that my narcissism is pretty obvious, I wouldn't even attempt to hide it, I mean it's only out grossed by my self loathing.

...and this is why we get along so well.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Bill on September 18, 2013, 05:29:19 AM
Lets just say I grok myself.


I also masturbate.
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Arashi_Calunata on September 18, 2013, 10:25:25 PM
Thanks for that, Xarg Talasko. I've always been iffy on that subject- I got most canon relating to history secondhand, knowing mainly scattered facts. The only thing I 100% know for sure is that Mechassault's lore is sketchy, at best. And it's never at best.

Anyways, couldn't North Korea be a more direct comparison to the Clan's methods of making the warriors think the IS is inherently "Bad"?

Or am I spouting nonsense?
Title: Re: Clan society
Post by: Xarg Talasko on September 19, 2013, 04:33:26 AM
I personally find a reasonably solid comparison with the British Empire. They speak the same language, use the same tools, but quite clearly are not even remotely as civilised as we are..  ::)