Turrets

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fire-hound

(unendorsed custom ones as well as current ones)

I wanted to discuss here the turrets as a whole:
We have turrets and they work - nonetheless
We can't use them but a single one or two tops - any more than that and they kill the fun.
But I for one, and I'm not alone there, love turrets and the effect and fireworks, what can be done?

We can't influence them to miss 50% or about so, Cry2 engine can't, or?
We can't make them to "delay" firing - only constant fire rate
We can make them "use" ammo that define fire effect
We can use an constant fire rate (could this fire rate possibly be alternated during run time? no?)
We can use constant damage per hit amount (could this be alternated in run time? no?)

So, in order for the turrets to provide more fun (the thing we're in in the first place) i suggest we deal as following:

a. to limit near by efficiency - increase turn rates dramatically (up to x8 slower) of heavier weapons
b. to balance out the fun-killing reduce fire rates to 50%, and damage to about 30% compared to mech weapon (1/6th of performance) on all turrets (half the incidence and with third the damage)
c. on dual or triple turrets, to make an illusion of sequential fire, change fire rates but retain average fire rate the same - the weapons will sync fire only rarely

And see if it would allow for more turrets to "fire work" across the game?

It's a pity if we can have the thing yet can't use it but most sparsely?

DeimosEvotec

I haven't messed much with turrets but just from taking a look at the xmls it seems like most of the stuff you are talking about should be possible in some way.

fire-hound We can't influence them to miss 50% or about so, Cry2 engine can't, or?

Projectile turret weapons can be given spread
but for all turrets you can increase the aim_tolerance and reduce turn speed which should lead to a higher chance of the turret to miss shots.
Reducing the aim_tolerance and reducing the turn speed should lead to the turret having trouble shooting at faster targets.

fire-hound We can't make them to "delay" firing - only constant fire rate

There are some variables that look like they might delay target acquisition but I don't think that's what you mean.

fire-hound We can use an constant fire rate (could this fire rate possibly be alternated during run time? no?)

They might be able to use the spinup and spindown like racs so you might be able to increase or decrease the fire rate the longer they shot a burst at a target and maybe they could also use the overheat mechanics or give them limited clip size but infinite spare clips.

fire-hound We can use constant damage per hit amount (could this be alternated in run time? no?)

Besides just damage drop off over distance for projectile weapons I don't know.

Take all this with a large grain of salt as everything I said is untested and just based of the content of the existing turret xmls and my limited knowledge of how the game works.

Fluffy_Destroyer

if turrets shot some sort of dodgeable projectile they'd be fine with me

fire-hound

Fluffy_Destroyer ,
turrets currently (and exclusively) shoot lasers, how do you imagine dodging an laser, I wonder?

Fluffy_Destroyer

by making them not shoot lasers

fire-hound

The slowest projectile currently seems to be the thunder bolt missile, but i'm not aware of any turret using it?
Other projectiles would be odd to slow down?
PPC included?

Bill

Don't look exclusively to lore for game play solutions would be my first shout.

fire-hound

DeimosEvotec this makes it even more likely for me to fiddle with them.

The problem is, currently they load the player in their range with too much damage in too little time.

And most of the players agree that "players should fight players (ie humans), and not turrets"?

One way could be if we uniformly "scale" them to a fraction of the current efficiency.

The question is - how to do it to get most fun out of it?

haarp

The gall to assume that "most players agree"

fire-hound

haarp
I didn't bring this up, I merely witnessed few games where those regular TS3 users had commented how annoying is to die of turrets.
This was during the time only maps where updated (the 0.7.1.era), didn't see You playing then very much?
And it occurred few times afterward, in response to some subtle map changes (Marches, Mirage, maybe another) where not one single player ever claimed the opposite (that turrets are okay to be OP)?

So, being brought up during public matches, and having the most veterans participate,i agree, isn't really "most" right now.

Back then it was - excluding the ELH, not many more played MW:LL back then.

For today player base, again I agree, this is far from most (I admit - my bad), but the today's "most" players are clueless of balance and fun preservation?

So I rephrase it, to please You (if I ever will?):

The majority of the players that know the game the best and the longest, agree

Surely You won't requite me to give their personal IDs or signatures?
or?

Glarrg

Don't agree at all. Turrets are made of paper and hardly do any damage at all. Their LOS is easily broken and there's never normally more than two at any given point.

If you're complaining about dying to turrets as a serious problem you need to GIT GUD

fire-hound

Gentleman! For Glarrg and Bill notes, I agree - there are to few turrets - IMHO
where they weaker, we could place more, as DeimosEvotec notes?

We had LBL turrets and they effectively hindered any back capping - short of bases with repair pods!

Where they weaker, we could keep them IMO?

no?

Bill

I agree with glargg here tbh, and the only ones that don't really meet that assessment are the turrets found on uncappable/main bases which can be monstrously fierce but justifiably so. I remember in versions past that base camping used to be a real problem.

DeimosEvotec

The sentinel (medium laser) turrets have already been nerfed.
They had their damage halved (they mounted 2 med las before instead of one)
and their quantity on official maps has been reduced.

Firehound wants to add more turrets for the spectacle without them being too strong.

Fluffy_Destroyer

the problem with turrets is not that they're op, it's that they're annoying and don't serve any purpose. sure is fun sitting around taking like 10% damage to ct when capping a point

fire-hound

The auto turrets are a canon (apocryphal) thing to the franchise - and especially on Dropships.

But currently, we can't use many (if any) due them being "hope ends here" kind of OP as fsck?

And the upcoming Vanir should have really many (many) of them? and triple LPL ones tho - one alone would decimate even assaults, not to mention ASF or VTOL?

I am of the opinion that turrets shouldn't kill fun, nor players - except on main bases.

Bu can we agree on how make them add to the immersion without shattering the fun?

Did you ever see double ERPPC turrets in action? No? Well I did, and fell in "love" with them.

haarp

No we don't agree.

Stop trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

And stop pretending that what you are making is in any way official, your wording is intentionally misleading.

fire-hound

Pardon me, sir, are the community maps also intentionally misleading?

Or are You aware of any official map yet to have the upcoming Vanir?

I think, I see Your point, but You clearly refuse to see mine:

The problem of CBT versus Cry2 engine is the accuracy - in table top they "roll" for modifiers and misses. Quasi random.

Cry2 engine is clueless of that. Only thing we have is the "recoil cone" but it remains to be seen if it can be applied to auto turrets.

And, yes, anything we conclude here is, from my part, completely not endorsed and non official, as it always was.

Bill

Calm down haarp, no one is under any delusions here. He's done a lot of work on this dropship thing and actual BT map assets are something sorely lacking.

And C'est what I was basically alluding to in my previous post about not always looking to lore for gameplay solutions is thus. Don't have the canonical amount of turrets on the thing, have the amount that suits the balance.

fire-hound

Bill ,
According to my experience in pub and CM games, anything more than two "Sentinels" (before the last nerf), was stretching it really?

And it is nothing but a sad picture to have an Vanir with but two Sentinels?

Let's then just use inflated beach toys for to mock the art?

OTOH, wold we allow for the singular turrets to be further downgraded, it would allow for quite more of them to be used, especially the Hellgivers we currently cant use but maybe few on HQ bases?

My sole intention was, to bring this idea as an viable solution - no current turrets need be changed - so any current map stays as is - no more load on already strained dev-mappers.
Any new turrets can be added as a separate patch (to game root, not to mod root) and it will work (ask @DeimosEvotec we tested it 100% works), i wont go into how this or not breaks anything - we merely tested f it works or not, and it does currently work.
Once (if ever) the dev team would like it, it is "easy peasy" to endorse them (copy & paste) and include in an official release. Or edit to their own liking (no I wouldn't mind at all, as long as they are usable on Dropships).
The mappers could then choose to use the endorsed (if any) or the "rogue" at will - they would be unique each in its own path.

This is an easy solution, and allows for a tad more freedom for the community mappers (and 3d artists) to experiment?

So, is this the new holocaust?