Battle Armor revision

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haarp

Seeing as people are still getting discouraged from playing as BA due to bugs and broken behavior, I want to repeat my proposal from waaaay back in the old forum. This would be a simple and easy-to-implement interim solution paving the way for future BA upgrades.

The attempt is to balance Battle Armor, giving ejecting pilots a small fighting chance while making dedicated ones more powerful. At the same time, the most annoying bugs, related to grenades, will be entirely avoided.

As can be seen, the classic Elemental has four different weapon systems. The primary weapon (laser), secondary weapon (machine gun slung under the claw), SRM tubes and claw (unused).

The primary weapon is interchangeable, offering two slots, but cannot be taken into a cockpit.
The Bear AC (the default rotary cannon) is replaced by a fixed anti-personell MG slung under the claw that does slightly less the same damage than the weapon it replaces. It can be taken into the cockpit as it is fixed. It becomes the default self-defense weapon for ejecting pilots.
BA grenades are removed entirely.
SRMs get limited ammo, but receive a massive damage buff. This is to compensate the lack of grenades. Two missiles are loaded by default, additional salvos may be purchased at an APC. Inferno and NARC missiles may be an option aswell.
SRMs cannot be taken into the cockpit either.
Mouse1 fires the primary weapon. Mouse2 fires the MG (can't be fired if the primary weapon has been fired within the last 2 seconds). Mouse3 fires the SRMs (same limitation as for MG). Mousewheel switches between primary weapons.

fire-hound

I can't but agree removing the grenades would make few of the quite old bugs obsolete and non applicable.
Bugs that seem to be otherwise not likely to be ever solved.

But, on the other hand, I see how much the grenades add to the feeling of special combat and the immersion.

How about, if the grenades absolutely must remain, we only keep them as non sticking ones - and we give them somewhat more splash to compensate for that nerf?

I can see this alleviating some of the same bugs, while keeping the grenades in game, as some players have grown them to the heart?

no?

Fluffy_Destroyer

Aren't grenades supposed to come instead of swarm/leg attacks since those can't be implemented yet? And wasn't the reasoning behind not touching BA always that any work that went into them now would be washed away with the BA patch which would completely rework BA anyway?

haarp

Knightcrawler I'm sorry to say that this is a bit tl;dr for me. It seems you're thinking this proposal would make BA weaker than they are now. It wouldn't. On the contrary, having SRMs replace the pure damage output of C8 charges should improve the effectiveness of each dedicated BA. Instead of spamming them, you now get to carefully manage your precious ammo. And let's be honest here, SRMs as they are now are only a threat if the BA player is either very patient or facing idiots.

Fluffy_Destroyer And wasn't the reasoning behind not touching BA always that any work that went into them now would ~~be washed away~~ complement ~~with~~ the BA patch which would completely rework BA anyway?

Knightcrawler

I played MW on the SNES and MWII on PC, but when good MW games were coming out I was picking up good LucasArts games, and I wasn't into tabletop when I was a kid. So when I played MWLL, I wasn't drawn in by how accurate to canon it was. The game isn't completely realistic, but it was realistic enough. Trust me, I can relate; it always ticks me off when I see Star Wars games where 3 or so Nebulon-Bs can take on Imperial Star Destroyers.

But I'm gonna spout some heresy and say that I think just looking at the game from the perspective of a Battletech enthusiast will leave you missing a lot of the game's beauty, AND that it is an unrealistic expectation to have. I'll cover the second point first:

Why is canon-accurate BA an unrealistic expectation of MWLL? Anytime you are in a game, press the Tab button. What do you see? You see relatively even teams, with at most 28 players (or more if you want to F the server). HAARP and to a lesser extent Fire Hound's proposal would drastically cut the strength of each Battle Armor, to the point where it is approaching canon-accurate. With only a single anti-mech weapon and 4 missiles, I can tell you that my effectiveness would be cut by at least 80% - that is, I'd be about 1/5 as strong as I was when BA worked properly. While this is also canon-accurate, and you'd expect 3-6 BA to be required to take a mech down, press that Tab button again. Did your team get 5 extra players when you decided to go BA? No, it didn't. It might feel pretty cool to make a BA squad and zoom around the battlefield with your friends, getting the jump on enemies... but the rest of your team will be less-than-happy at effectively being down the equivalent of 2-4 players. Uh oh, a bunch of mechs are incoming to the center base! We need to respond! Wait, no... 5 of our players have an ETA of 4 minutes instead of 30 seconds because they're on foot. And even if they got there, they'd only be the equivalent of one enemy player. And if there is just one enemy player who picks that 6 M.Gun Solitaire, or a Partisan or Huit, or a RIfleman, you and all your friends are going to have a very bad time (especially since you'll give away each other's position and reveal your APC locations extremely quickly).

You might chime in and say that I'd also have a Light M.Gun, so I'd be able to take out other BA. Well as exciting as BA duels can be (when you have a variety of weapons, not when both sides are just shooting each other with BACs), killing BA does almost nothing to help your team win. You might rack up a lot of kills, but at the end of the day, you're dead weight to your team if you concentrate on killing other BA. "But wait, BA are great at disrupting enemy lines and sabotaging slow mechs and vehicles!" Without grenades and with only 1 anti-mech weapon and just 4 missiles, they sure as heck are NOT good at that. Without an mpPPC, you can't catch up to enemies, dodge incoming fire, deal death blows at range, shake enemy cockpits at opportune times, and your DPS is cut by about 1/4. Without infinite SSRMs, your DPS is cut by another 1/4, again you can't shake enemy cockpits at opportune times, and you cannot play mindgames with enemies (target lock warning). Without an mHC, your DPS drops by 1/2. Your proposal basically forces dedicated BA to take a BAC instead of something useful, which is something no good BA player in his right mind would do.

How much of a damage buff do you think you can give BA SSRMs to make up for losing infinite refills? Unless they do Arrow IV damage, it's not enough. BA SSRMs are critical for fighting enemy mechs and enemy BA (especially when every ejected pilot has one of the best anti-BA weapons by default). Just because you might die before firing your fourth SSRM doesn't mean a dedicated BA player does. On each of my lives, I probably connect with between 10 and 60 missiles. Do you really want a single BA SSRM to deal damage equivalent to 15 SSRMs in damage? Frankly, even then it would be a nerf, because I wouldn't have the freedom to use SSRMs for mind games, communication (yes), or BA duels.

Does this really sound fun to you? If you choose an mpPPC, you'll be able to move around the battlefield effectively and dodge enemy fire, but you won't deal enough damage to anything to be worth playing. Or if you choose a mHL, you'll die before you even get into range of an enemy (without mpPPC boosting/dodging) and it'd take you twice as long to walk anywhere. You could choose the AC2, but without an mpPPC you'll never get in range to use it in anything other than single-shot mode. Every other weapon is worthless already. There's no reward to getting close to enemies because you have no grenades. Sure if you get right under their feet you are harder to hit, but you're more likely to get killed by probably-buggy legs. And after running/jetting across the battlefield for 4-8 minutes, you fire your SSRMs 4 times and have to make the trip back. 8-16 minutes of walking to fire four times. Don't say "just ride a light mech into battle!" Try it. Just try it in a real game. It's a fun trick when it doesn't glitch out, and it can be good for returning to base, but unless you want to die the first time your friend is pegged by an enemy, you're better off not doing it. And besides, BA are better off acting stealthy.

So now for the second part; you're missing a part of the game's beauty. Nobody plays every role. I'm not that great in the air and I am garbage with assault mechs. And BA is the most frustrating to get good with, perhaps aside from ASF. So it's no surprise that you haven't really had moments like these:

You're alone in a base being attacked by multiple mechs. Since they can target you through walls, they've had their reticules trained on you the entire time, and they're trying to get a clear shot. If you pop into the air or duck out of cover, you'll be dead before you can pull the trigger (and certainly before you can do much damage). But just running won't work; you have to fight and defeat them somehow. You feather your jump jets to put you just underneath your cover and pull out your mpPPC.

POP! You blast your mpPPC to a far-away wall and hit your JJs a little harder while switching to SSRMs. They'd been itching to pull the trigger, but your sudden acceleration couldn't be accounted for, so their LBX shots graze just past your visor. Just a couple of those pellets would have spelled your end. But your trick was only enough to throw off their first attack, and they quickly swivel to match your speed. One of them gets there first, but you were ready. A single SSRM sizzles out beside your ear and is wire-guided straight into their cockpit. They've shaken a mite, but that's not enough to make him miss so you completely lay off the JJs while you fire another missile to distract him. Four medium lasers sear just over your head. His LBXs will be ready again soon and he is further away from you; if you don't make him your next target, you're as good as dead. You have perhaps 2 seconds to close the distance with him.

But his friend won't make it easy on you. Though slower, his SRMs look pretty scare this close to his feet, now that you are on the ground. He's a little close, but you have no choice; you have to blind him to make your move on your target. So you throw an Inferno Charge at him. It misses but sticks onto an object next to him. The short fuse of the Inferno Charge and its large blast radius make it particularly deadly to... well, yourself, so you reverse jets immediately to hop over his soon-to-be-incoming SRMs with the fuel you had reserved. Explosions below tell you he took his shot, but in just another half-second, he is shaken and shrouded in fire that almost engulfs you as well.

Time's running out on the LBX reload, though, so you pull our your mpPPC and with the last drop of fuel in your jets pop yourself just in front of his feet. He swivels, but at this range you're faster. Backing up a few meters behind him puts you at risk of his blast again, but you have to finish this half of the fight quickly. You carefully hide in his shadow from his friend; just barely eclipsing yourself from fusion-powered retribution. You fling a satchel at his back successfully, but since you've been forced to hold position to hide, your target's torso twist has put his back out of line for your second satchel. Your jump jets have only recovered a little bit of juice. When those C8 charges go off, you'll have put a huge amount of hurt onto your first target. But you're on the clock again. After just a few seconds of safety, you've been tossed back into the fire... the job's not over yet.

...

That's what it is like to play as a BA in MWLL. It is very often a sublime experience; it's distilled adrenaline laced into a chocolate drumstick. Even the noobiest of noobs can end your life in a single hit, and with only one or two of their weapons. It's a dance of distance and height, gravity and bursts of acceleration. When being stealthy, you have to judge when you might blow your cover by using JJs or mpPPC boosting. Your weapons aren't just sources of damage and they certainly aren't annoyances to manage, they're tools and lifelines! You arc SSRMs over walls in hopes that they will hit. You communicate a known enemy to your team by firing a single missile into the canyon ahead to trigger their AMS. You time your SSRM and mpPPC attacks very carefully to make the screenshake you deal more effective. You laugh maniacally as you casually shut down a mech's night vision on Monument Valley (Night). You laugh maniacally as you're forced to flee from an unexpected group of mechs... but not before giving them the gift of Surprise NARC Beacon. You laugh maniacally when a well-timed mpPPC blast shoves you straight down onto an enemy's torso (not their cockpit because they can magically kill you as long as their cursor is over you), and you start to pull out your mHL (remember kids, attacking someone you've landed on with an mpPPC/SSRMs/grenades/flamers will just kill you). You laugh maniacally as you stand alone in a graveyard of mechs that you just barely survived. And when someone manages to HGauss you in the face when you through you were perfectly safe/mobile, you laugh with them and type "great shot" when you respawn.

So when someone who's been pivotal to the revival of MWLL says "well it's broken because people broke it with successive patches, so instead of fixing it, let's scrap all that and replace it with a simplified, inferior experience," it's a pretty sad day for me.

DeimosEvotec

I agree with Knightcrawler.
/rant start
[rant deleted]
/rant end
To add something constructive to the discussion, you want to
"attempt to balance Battle Armor, giving ejecting pilots a small fighting chance while making dedicated ones more powerful. Also avoid the most annoying bugs, both related to grenades. No more annoying switching around of weapons."
Dedicated ba don't need a hard-mounted bearac, the anti vehicle weapons might be harder to use against ba but they do the job just fine. Having 2 primary weapons is more important than having a bearac.
I don't think having super ba srm is good for game-play, instant killing light mechs in the back from 300m doesn't sound fun also having the c8 damage potential being shot down by lams also doesn't feel right. Currently the only way to deal lots of damage undetected is against assets without enhanced radar suit with the mhl staying in the small 25m window outside of detection but inside the range of the micro heavy laser.
Also what about inferno and narc grenades?
For the controls I don't really see the big problem, the defaults aren't that great imo because the next/previous weapon cycles are used on the mouse wheel. I personally use select primary weapon and select secondary weapon on the mouse wheel instead. If we can get the srms to always be selected I would make it something like this:
m1 primary fire, m2 grenades throw, m3 srm fire, mw-up cycles between the two primaries and mw-down cycles through the grenades.
Yes this doesn't avoid the bugs but the apc spawn bug seems fixable (even if it might be something hacky like spawning on an apc spawns you in the main base instead and then teleports you into the apc)

This last point goes back to the question(s) of when should a pilot eject / in which situation is a pilot fighting a ba and what should the odds be for both?
The only two valid cases for ejecting that I can find are ejecting when you can reach a buy zone in 20s or less
or if we had a team based onelife gamemode that allows rebuying which we don't have.
Now what are the cases where a pilot is fighting ba? The ba intrudes the space of the pilot aka the ba, moves into a base where the pilot spawned. The pilot can buy something to fight the ba if he does it's a ba vs ba fight which is fine. If he doesn't buy something or the base was neutralized what should his fighting chance be against the ba? In the same vein are the situations of the pilot ejected and got intercepted by a ba on the way to a buy zone or he ejected because his assets is unfit for fighting ba (no good anit ba weapons or close to death).
I don't mind if the pilot has better jj, I don't mind if he has a lower radar signature. I don't mind if he has higher chances to escape from the fight.
But the pilot should not have equal odds to win a fight against a ba. Pilots need to have either less health or less firepower. I would give them smoke grenades and a machine gun that doesn't deal as much damage against ba but shakes their aim instead.

haarp

Who the hell said anything about having a hard-mounted single primary weapon?

DeimosEvotec instant killing light mechs in the back from 300m

Less damage than that. Obviously. Concepts such as less damage the further away you are can also be evaluated.

DeimosEvotec having the c8 damage potential being shot down by lams

So get closer. Makes AMS have an useful function against BA too.

DeimosEvotec Also what about inferno and narc grenades?

Scrap em for all I care, or allow special SRM ammo.

DeimosEvotec the pilot should not have equal odds to win a fight against a ba.

The lack of SRMs and primary weapon is not a large disadvantage? The fact that BA currently eject with an entire Arnie loadout capable of leveling entire mechs is better?

DeimosEvotec For the controls I don't really see the big problem

They're awful. Having to constantly switch weapons and wait for it to rise up to see with ease which one you have selected is horrible UX.

DeimosEvotec

haarp Who the hell said anything about having a hard-mounted single primary weapon?

Nobody, I was talking about one hard-mounted bearac and one other primary vs the current 2 primary weapons.
But the bearac is useless at least 80% of the time since you wont be fighting ba or pilots 80% of the time.

haarp Less damage than that
So get closer. Makes AMS have an useful function against BA too.

So the 4 super srm will have roughly equal or less damage than 4 c8 which is a big overall reduction in potential damage but a big increase in the range which that potential damage can be dealt. I will have to test it out sometime.
Also early game lams are rare but they get more common the longer the game progresses when you actually need that damage.

haarp The lack of SRMs and primary weapon is not a large disadvantage?

In a ba vs pilot (or ba) fight srm are not that important. The fight can end before both touch the ground again and if it doesn't they'll try to land in cover. If it's against an ejected pilot you have probably already shot two of the four ssrm against his asset and only have 2 left. The bearac is a way bigger factor as it is a 600m pinpoint deathbeam that kills ba in under a second if held on target. If you have a bearac in a ba fight you don't need another primary, tho the mPPC would be useful just for the utility.

haarp The fact that BA currently eject with an entire Arnie loadout capable of leveling entire mechs is better?

What do they have? A full stack of grenades that ~~everybody~~ nobody ~~always~~ ever buys before they get into an asset? A srm that they can fire once every blue moon? Oh, it must be the bearac dealing ~~massive~~ no damage.

haarp They're awful. Having to constantly switch weapons and wait for it to rise up to see with ease which one you have selected is horrible UX.

I rather have two primaries and having to switch than not having to switch but only having one primary and a hardmounted bearac.
If you use next/previous weapon on the mousewheel try replacing those with select primary and select secondary, I find that that works better.

Knightcrawler

If you don't want to read a very nice post I made for you, HAARP, let me summarize rudely: from your posts, it is obvious you are garbage at playing BA because you don't understand how they play. Therefore you are making a proposition that would cut a BA's strength by about 80% and justifying it to yourself by it being canon. You are ignoring the fact that MWLL has balanced teams and is PvP, so every player has to be roughly as capable of helping thr team win regardless of the asset class they take. A top ASF player should be as effective as a top mech player should be as effective as a top BA player. Your proposal would make BAs both ineffective and incredibly boring to play.

haarp

If you don't want to understand the very nice posts I made for you, Knightcrawler, let me summarize rudely: You suck. And I mean that in the most insulting way possible. From your posts, it is obvious you have yet to understand what is even proposed, jump to conclusions based on ignorance, then have the gall to question my skills. Therefore you are slamming a proposition that would improve a BA's strength by 80%, which is not trying to justify anything at all whatsoever through canon. You are ignoring the fact that you have no experience playing BA whatsoever and never tried helping your team. You are also good at throwing around random, baseless accusations. I on the other hand have no idea why I let myself get roped into a personal slugging match in an open forum, but there we have it. Your reluctance has doomed us all.

Also you steal candy from little kids. And that's awful.

Knightcrawler

I can see how you earned your old forum reputation. Hey, if you are unwilling to back up your claims and refuse to even read what experts on the topic have to say, that's on you. BAs are the weakest assets in the game, so you have to win be using everything at your disposal as tools, first and foremost. That is what makes the asset type fun. Simply saying "we'll take away these tools and increase these numbers" isn't a design strategy that can lead to a viable or fun BA.

For instance, doubling BA HP at the expense of even 10% JJ fuel wouldn't be worth it, since double health would still have you instantly killed by most attacks that can be avoided completely with that extra fuel. If that makes it sound like JJ fuel is the be-all-end all of buff stats, it's not. Doubling JJ fuel at the expense of a second weapon would also be useless, because JJing without PPC-jumping can only work on approach against total noobs, and it decreases your mobility around a map considerably meaning you spend more of your time not doing anything. Likewise, taking away a player's ability to choose their primary weaponS, taking away their SSRMs as tools they can use consistently, and taking away their ability to capitalize on getting close to enemies, are all bad options that can't be made up for simply by increasing SSRM damage by a bit.

What the BA needs more than anything is bug fixes to take it back to where it was in the 0.5x versions. There's no need to redesign any core mechanics; it was fun and balanced when it was working properly. Beyond that, it needs more viable loadouts to choose from, as there are only two (mpPPC and mHL OR mpPPC and AC2) unless you want to tag exclusively (and even that is very rarely actually useful for reasons I could explain if you cared).

But if you don't believe me, that's fine. I haven't played in probably over a year, but I have no doubt I can prove I understand the asset type better than you. We can set up a little competition if you want. You can show me just how amazing the BAC really is. Otherwise, I can assume your behavior will continue as it has up until now, so it is likely that posting in this topic will do no more good.

haarp

It's quite simple tho. The second you started questioning my experience in favor of arguing about the actual matter, you invalidated your own opinion. Not that I care that you attacked me, but this manner of discourse that involves belittling those of different opinion is not appreciated. Hence my less friendly response.

I would like to go back to arguing about battle armor. Without personal attacks, we should be able to work something out that is acceptable to everyone. You can start by mentioning what exactly your grief is with my proposal, as that is still not clear.

It appears you dislike the removal of grenades. Unfortunately grenades are simply broken and no fix can be expected. They don't stick to tanks, as that led to mass-crashes. They don't stick the mechlegs. And they don't stick to torsos half the time, on top of being the victim of lag. They are the source of bugs that involve switching weapons and grenade types. Thank Cryengine.

The only solution is to get rid of them.

DeimosEvotec

haarp You can start by mentioning what exactly your grief is with my proposal, as that is still not clear.

To me it seems we are both skeptical about the merging of srm and C8, tho I'm willing to test it out. But if you don't want to buff the damage of the srm too much I would argue that four shots just isn't enough.

The other thing that I we certainly dislike is the change from two primary weapons to one primary weapon and one hardmounted bearac.

haarp

DeimosEvotec The other thing that I we certainly dislike is the change from two primary weapons to one primary weapon and one hardmounted bearac.

As I said, I'm not proposing a single primary weapon. We can keep a selection of switchable primary weapons. The point of the hardmounted BearAC is to offer limited self-defense capability due to the fact that primary weapons may not be taken into cockpits.

DeimosEvotec To me it seems we are both skeptical about the merging of srm and C8, tho I'm willing to test it out. But if you don't want to buff the damage of the srm too much I would argue that four shots just isn't enough.

This is up to a balancing pass. How much damage a missile deals and how many reloads can ultimately be carried will be tweaked. Have two missiles by default, and allow X reloads, where X has to be bought manually, similar to current C8.

As for your concerns about AMS: When your enemies use such a system, you have to get close enough that AMS has no time to shoot down your missiles. Currently C8 requires you to be at very close range already. This way AMS becomes a valuable asset against BA, but does not prevent daring close-range attacks and ambushes.

DeimosEvotec

haarp As I said, I'm not proposing a single primary weapon. We can keep a selection of switchable primary weapons. The point of the hardmounted BearAC is to offer limited self-defense capability due to the fact that primary weapons may not be taken into cockpits.

Then that was a miscommunication due to bad wording of the first post. In that case my argument changes into it shouldn't be a bearac but something weaker, as I said before the bearac in its current form is a 600m anti ba deathray.

haarp This is up to a balancing pass. ...

As I said I'm willing to test it but I'm still skeptical. I would want to at least try to fix the grenade bugs before just removing them outright.

haarp

I've updated the first post slightly, hopefully making things clearer.

DeimosEvotec it shouldn't be a bearac but something weaker, as I said before the bearac in its current form is a 600m anti ba deathray.

But it already exists. So you're arguing the Bear AC shouldn't exist at all? What difference does it make if a BA switches to the Bear AC (current) or fires it as a secondary weapon after a cooldown (proposed)?

But fair enough, it's a sort of "third weapon". Reducing it's damage output is fine by me.

DeimosEvotec I would want to at least try to fix the grenade bugs before just removing them outright.

Go ahead. Wandering Samurai tried and failed, and none of us managed to do it either.

DeimosEvotec

Every pilot having a top tier anti ba weapon is one of the most annoying things for me in the current ba balance.

Let me give you a stupid analogy:
You have an asf with decent anti ground weapons and a super aa gun, you find a longtom. It's an easy target, can't really shoot back but suddenly with the press of a button an asf also equipped with a super aa gun pops out of the longtom. A fight with roughly equal winning odds ensues either you win and destroy the asf and lt or you loose and it gets back into the lt but in both cases a previously easy target suddenly transformed into an opponent with roughly equal strength to you.

Want another one?
You are again in your asf with the super aa gun and some extra weapons, you spot a heavily damaged mech. While you get into weapon range it spots you and out of the mech pops an asf with a super aa weapon. You manage to destroy the mech but the asf kills you, the mech was worth a lot more tickets than your asf so you made a good trade but it still doesn't feel good.

You notice how stupid this sound with vehicles instead of ba?
This is why a top tier weapon should not be a default weapon, rather give everybody a mid tier weapon instead and keep the bearac as buyable weapon.

Fluffy_Destroyer

usually when I'm in a mech that's bad against BA and I'm against a good BA player I hop out and use the BA MG rather than trying to kill the BA in my mech simply because the BA MG as it is is so strong. I'd totally be down for the default pilot weapon to be weaker. the small laser as it is currently would be a good candidate imo.

Glarrg

deimos and knighcrawler in charge of reading comprehension

haarp

Very well, @DeimosEvotec , @Fluffy_Destroyer. I do agree that the BA Mgun should be less powerful than the Bear AC.