Author Topic: 'MechLab Custom 'Mechs and Ranking Up  (Read 13114 times)

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Offline Temphage

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Re: 'MechLab Custom 'Mechs and Ranking Up
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2010, 12:10:17 AM »
Zeus6S - you won't. Madcat doesn't have that many gunslots, and even those it has aren't suitable to handle MBL everywhere. I think max would be like... 6? or 4 +2 SBL.
Well actually, it has. Each ear can mount 3 lasers, each arm 2 and 1 laser can be put in each torso. That totals 12 MBL!


Offline shadowkiller

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Re: 'MechLab Custom 'Mechs and Ranking Up
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2010, 12:33:14 AM »
With 12mbl you will probably damage yourself more then your enemy will. If you alpha strike that will spike you WAY over the redline and you will receive damage all over your mech (and quite alot too) until you drop below the red.  More heatsinks just make the heat bleed off faster, it doesn't reduce the amount of heat that's generated.


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Offline Temphage

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Re: 'MechLab Custom 'Mechs and Ranking Up
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2010, 12:39:59 AM »
With 12mbl you will probably damage yourself more then your enemy will. If you alpha strike that will spike you WAY over the redline and you will receive damage all over your mech (and quite alot too) until you drop below the red.  More heatsinks just make the heat bleed off faster, it doesn't reduce the amount of heat that's generated.

Well you can always ripple-fire into four groups of three...

Offline =KoS=Zeus

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Re: 'MechLab Custom 'Mechs and Ranking Up
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2010, 03:31:45 AM »
Currently I have seen the Puma with a triple CERMBL pod for each arm, I have also seen the Madcat with triple CERMPulseLasers in its 'ears', this right here is 12 CERMBL, follow that up with the 2-4 nose guns and you have between 14-16 CERMBL and ~12-14 tons of extra heat sinks on top of that.

The Puma C has only 6 of these things and is a frickin terror. I cut ASFs out of the air with those 6 lasers and can cut a Partisan in half with an alpha followed by 3 lasers only a few seconds later.

Heat dissipation versus spike MIGHT actually balance this out, but I strongly urge the Devs to break the mechlab as badly as they can and see what will and will not fly in an actual game rather than my armchair/sideline designing without all the facts.

Offline Nitro_R

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Re: 'MechLab Custom 'Mechs and Ranking Up
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2010, 08:49:27 AM »
Quote
offline mechlab as mech variant creation is a process that takes much time, often with some iterations of testing it
+ it's like just asking people to start cheating.
No way for Mechlab outside crysis.

People will with lots of time on their hands will optimize/iterate their mechs with or without an in-game/out-of-game Mechlab.  It's like saying, would you like to buy Home Electronics in the store (where you have limited time) or online (where you can compare prices and do a little more research).  No difference.

Not sure what you mean with the cheating comment.  Again IF a the client can upload your configurations to the server AND IF the server can validate the mech configuration, I don't think cheating would be a problem.
Again, this would take a little bit of bandwidth and server processing when someone logs in...

Someone else in this thread also mentioned that they would like the best of both worlds.  You have convinced me to think that that would be quite fun.

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2) You will be able to choose one mech (or a specific number of mechs) per weight class/vehicle class that you can bring into a game.
Classes could be: Light, Medium, Heavy, Assault, VTOL, Aerotech, etc.
No no, and once again: No.

It MIGHT work if you are a newbie, just learning the game, but as more experience player you should know that this game is about picking up proper measures against your opponents, environment, to support your team in best possible way. You cannot limit game to 1 customized mech of each class as it would spoil tons of fun.

Again, I agree that would LOVE to customize my mech in the hanger in-game.  However, since matches are only 45min-1hour long, if the majority of my team spend 50% of this time in the mech hanger just configuring stuff, there wouldn't be much battling going on.  So I think just grabbing your favourite mech out of preset selections and going straight into battle would better promote more awesome battle action.

What would you do in a game right now when half your team is AFK in the hanger?  I know I would be frustrated. It's the same effect the in-game MechLab would have (effectively making people AFK in hanger).

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This is to make sure super-laserboat 7ERLL Novacats are expensive so they cannot be exploited like in Mech4 (where they were free)
It's not MW4! Right now we have laserboats, as same as we have LPL boats or PPC boats or gauss boats - all of them are dangerous, but none of them is a killer like it was in MW4, and you rarely see such mechs on the battlefield. Guess why? Cause they are easier pray than they look on paper.
Constant heat problems, low accuracy (hitting is easy, holding the beam on single part is nearly impossible)... it doesn't make laserboats very friendly.

You are correct on all counts here.  Novacats are hella slow and would get firebombed or missile-bombarded before it could get to do some real damage.
And again, since Heatsinks in this game do not lower the total heat, it would spike to very high levels.
I'm just saying that price can be used dynamically to balance configurations if need be.
Not trying to say that anything in particular is overpowered.

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create a map explicitly for customizing a Loadout, but that still demands that you can 1. export the config, and 2. import the config in the game. Optionally running the game on your own server and creating and saving the config there. But you still need the ability to select the config in the normal Buy Menu regardless. That said if it is kept in a secluded map, you will have players connected and disconnecting time and again due to a flawed config.
This would be good. Could work well as map you start by selecting single-player campaign in game.


Awesome.

Anyways, sorry if it sounds like I'm ripping on you, Sky_walker.  Your points are just as valid as my opinions.  This is a great thread to bring up ideas.




i don't like the idea of a totally free mechlab, because the multi laser (or lrm) boats would take over, the field. that would take out most of the fun and challenge out of the game.

the pod system, like it was shown in the vid, seems to keep a minimun of diversity of weapons on the mechs.

Multi-Laser or LRM boats probably won't be totally feasible or possible with limited gunpods, yeah.  From the video we see that gun pods usually have a mix of sizes you can put in one pod.  Also, heat is a huge factor in MWLL compared to MW4.  Heatsinks only increase the rate of dissapation but not total heat.  So when you fire off 7 ERLL all at once, you'll probably asplode even if you could dissapate all the heat in 2 seconds!


-------------------------------------

[About Rock-Paper-Scissors]
RPS makes games interesting.
Think about games like: Starcraft, Alien vs Predator (the first one), Natural Selection, and even BattleTech pen and paper.

The more strategies you can have, the more counter-strategies you will make your opponents resort to, then you will try another counter-strategy.  This leads to variety in gameplay.  Isn't this what we want in a Mechwarrior game?

If the majority of people who play MWLL prefer Rock-vs-Rock (ie. Laserboat-Novacat vs Laserboat-Novacat) or Scissor-vs-Scissor (LRM-boat vs LRM-boat on Clearcut haha),...
... then you should voice your opinion.  It's the community that drives the game development here.
(I was gonna say "go play MW4 but I'm not going to because the community voice wins over my opinion)


--------------------------------------
Addendum:

Holycrapthispostissolongnobodyisgoingtoreadit.
As for chrome armor, make that a +1 for me.

Offline Rally

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Re: 'MechLab Custom 'Mechs and Ranking Up
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2010, 10:26:13 AM »
With 12mbl you will probably damage yourself more then your enemy will. If you alpha strike that will spike you WAY over the redline and you will receive damage all over your mech (and quite alot too) until you drop below the red.  More heatsinks just make the heat bleed off faster, it doesn't reduce the amount of heat that's generated.
You maybe right. But it's impossible to say for sure without a chance to try this configuration.

Offline (TLL)Sky_walker

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Re: 'MechLab Custom 'Mechs and Ranking Up
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2010, 02:07:09 PM »
*Sky spots
Rally - I think shadowkiller might already tested your design....

Anyway... I totally forgot that madcat takes lasers on ears... sorry :-[

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Again IF a the client can upload your configurations to the server AND IF the server can validate the mech configuration, I don't think cheating would be a problem.
Can't agree more. But there are many "ifs" so as we came with Siilk - The comment from devs on this would be very appreciated :)

Quote
Again, I agree that would LOVE to customize my mech in the hanger in-game.  However, since matches are only 45min-1hour long, if the majority of my team spend 50% of this time in the mech hanger just configuring stuff, there wouldn't be much battling going on.
Yes, I know that very well, and it's 100% true. But you missed one thing - it will happen but only till the moment people will come with few favorite configs. Remember that the main aspect of this game is multiplayer combat, not mechlab, so we as well as other people sooner or later will seek for MP combat, no matter what.
Even if editor would be only available in MP game (which I doubt will happen) - people still would prefer to have fun with combat instead of editing. People playing MWLL aren't the same who play The Sims. ;)
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Offline Temphage

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Re: 'MechLab Custom 'Mechs and Ranking Up
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2010, 03:26:49 PM »
I know that very well, and it's 100% true. But you missed one thing - it will happen but only till the moment people will come with few favorite configs. Remember that the main aspect of this game is multiplayer combat, not mechlab, so we as well as other people sooner or later will seek for MP combat, no matter what.
Even if editor would be only available in MP game (which I doubt will happen) - people still would prefer to have fun with combat instead of editing. People playing MWLL aren't the same who play The Sims. ;)

The enthusiasm with which half the playerbase simply stands in one place pressing mouse3 for 45 minutes straight suggests otherwise.

Offline [IPA] Bravo Cadett

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Re: 'MechLab Custom 'Mechs and Ranking Up
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2010, 06:08:28 PM »
The enthusiasm with which half the playerbase simply stands in one place pressing mouse3 for 45 minutes straight suggests otherwise.

1. thing: if u missile boat, place LRM on mouse 1 and activate chain fire
2. thing: try to move in good position, and move after every launche so u are harder to detect, people who played WiC know this thing
3. if i have some confics i like, i go out on the field an shoot some thing
4. if we have objective based missions u have to go out an do something or u lose
5 no1 want to lose xD

Offline KayTannee

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Re: 'MechLab Custom 'Mechs and Ranking Up
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2010, 12:20:54 AM »
My 2cent.

I'm up for Single Player Mech Config Map (Select Single player, unlimited funds, build what you want, test it out and save it)

Also, think Customising a mech should be disproportionatly expensive.

Ie, using a stock mech costs say, 30Kc-bills. Creating exactly the same mech from scratch would cost 40Kc-bills. Using a method of buying a blank mech and loading it up with kit.

Or the methord I prefer, you've got to buy a stock mech, and then swap out components at an increased cost, so changing 1gun will add cost to mech, but not as much as changing everything.

Also would like to see adding certain things to different mechs cheaper or more expensive. Ie adding a top end electronic suit should be cheaper on a Raven then an Awsome. The Ravens designed for that purpose.

Either way, I want customising, but I want it to cost more then stock, so that people still use stock mechs in game, but the people who like a certain mech say a ShadowCat pilot, can have their perfect Scat, but will cost them 10K more.

Think that would be a good rule of thumb, a customised mech should cost atleast 1 experience level more worth of c-bills.

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Re: 'MechLab Custom 'Mechs and Ranking Up
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2010, 07:17:50 AM »
I like the map made for configuring mechs or the out of game one. But  you definately need to have as many variantions as you want to make of the mech (always have the default variant available though.) Really I when join i server i except everyone there to be playing. (I WANT KILLS! and i don't want to die because of teammate inactivity.)

Offline Incubus 24-7

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Re: 'MechLab Custom 'Mechs and Ranking Up
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2010, 11:46:06 AM »
@KayTannee:
I wholeheartedly agree with your post, though to balance the cost for the extras is a task i don't envy the devs for.

because its a lot of work to do it right and everybody will see it differently and will flame aloud in the forums about the injustice done to his or her favorite mech.
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Offline dCK-Warheart

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Re: 'MechLab Custom 'Mechs and Ranking Up
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2010, 03:58:14 PM »
@KayTannee:
I wholeheartedly agree with your post, though to balance the cost for the extras is a task i don't envy the devs for.

because its a lot of work to do it right and everybody will see it differently and will flame aloud in the forums about the injustice done to his or her favorite mech.

That is more or less what I thought as well. But I mean there are always people that bitch about that (sometimes including me), and since the devs look into the Forums as well I assume a good consent will be found. :)

Also since this is the first post in the thread I pretty much agree with the initial post just for the record. ;)
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Offline [IPA] Bravo Cadett

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Re: 'MechLab Custom 'Mechs and Ranking Up
« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2010, 09:53:27 PM »
My 2cent.

I'm up for Single Player Mech Config Map (Select Single player, unlimited funds, build what you want, test it out and save it)

Also, think Customising a mech should be disproportionatly expensive.

Ie, using a stock mech costs say, 30Kc-bills. Creating exactly the same mech from scratch would cost 40Kc-bills. Using a method of buying a blank mech and loading it up with kit.

Or the methord I prefer, you've got to buy a stock mech, and then swap out components at an increased cost, so changing 1gun will add cost to mech, but not as much as changing everything.

Also would like to see adding certain things to different mechs cheaper or more expensive. Ie adding a top end electronic suit should be cheaper on a Raven then an Awsome. The Ravens designed for that purpose.

Either way, I want customising, but I want it to cost more then stock, so that people still use stock mechs in game, but the people who like a certain mech say a ShadowCat pilot, can have their perfect Scat, but will cost them 10K more.

Think that would be a good rule of thumb, a customised mech should cost atleast 1 experience level more worth of c-bills.

yeah good point for the POD system: if u use all slots like they should be used the mech stays relativ cheap

so if u remodel a warhammer prime: cange the ppc's for LBL's the SRM6 to a LRM10 maybe, and the MPL and SPL to MBL and a TAG this shouldnt be expesive like hell ...

or other thing: you mount 4 ERPPC's on a Mad Cat so you have to change the "ear"pods from missile pods to heavy/big energy weapon pods
so this should be expensive like hell, because you change a lot on the mech ...

so long thing short:
just change weapons: cheap
change pods to change weapons: expensiv

mod:
so if you just want to change a PPC to a LBL to avoid the heat its not so expensive like you want to change an AC10 to a PPC

Offline LeadSponge

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Re: 'MechLab Custom 'Mechs and Ranking Up
« Reply #44 on: February 16, 2010, 01:34:20 AM »
I am totally against the idea of having a mechlab. While I am a huge fan of making custom mechs in the board game, for a multi-player game it is impossible to balance effectively.

One of the core concepts of the board game is the standard mechs aren't perfect machines. They have flaws. One mech carries more weapons than its heat sinks can handle, another carries the weapons and heat sinks, but not the armor. It is part of the style of the mechs that requires a player to learn how to use them.

I would be more than happy to see more variants from the TRO's. You could have the Liao Warhammer variant with flamers instead of machine guns. Hell, you could have the old school warhammer with the machine gun, small laser, and medium laser clusters.

The key is that while customization is fun for the individual user, it is not fun for those people who have to face it, and it will be near impossible to balance mainly because the battletech construction system isn't really balanced. You are already drawing construction rules from an unbalanced system, so there is no way to realistically balance the system for multi-player gameplay like this.

This might be more plausible if we were only doing old-school 3025 tech, but the second you bring any of the clan or 2750 TRO tech into the mix, the system breaks down in the area of player customization.

I like having choices that aren't perfect. It requires me to master a class of mech. It gives the mechs characters. So I am a big no on mech customization. It will ruin the fun of the game.